War between the western allies and the Sovs in '45. Who wins?

[Az]

War started by the West? Well perhaps. We could do it the same way the Brits did -- give Stalin an ultimatum to withdraw from Poland or else. In your view, Az, who would start the war if Stalin chose not to withdraw?

The west, obviously. Doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, mind you. Just a simple fact.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Az

War started by the West? Well perhaps. We could do it the same way the Brits did -- give Stalin an ultimatum to withdraw from Poland or else. In your view, Az, who would start the war if Stalin chose not to withdraw?

The west, obviously. Doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, mind you. Just a simple fact.

When I said that about the Brit ultimatum to Hitler, no one could seem to understand what I was talking about.

[Az]

wierd. It's quite obvious, probably due to todays emphasis in the eyes of some of the importance of sovereignity. Like, recently, some've seen the work of a certain russian author claiming that Stalin wanted to attack hitler first, as some sort of damning revalation against the USSR. if You ask me, it's a damn shame that the allies, and the USSR didn't start the war much much prior to that, to finish that piece of scum Hitler, as if his mass-murder was perfectly ok, just coz it was done on the sovereign territory of Germany.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Az
wierd. It's quite obvious, probably due to todays emphasis in the eyes of some of the importance of sovereignity. Like, recently, some've seen the work of a certain russian author claiming that Stalin wanted to attack hitler first, as some sort of damning revalation against the USSR. if You ask me, it's a damn shame that the allies, and the USSR didn't start the war much much prior to that, to finish that piece of scum Hitler, as if his mass-murder was perfectly ok, just coz it was done on the sovereign territory of Germany.

In 1939, Hitler and Stalin were allies and were on very good terms. I think Brit interference with Stalin, trying to get him to switch sides, may behind Hitler's change of mind his reliability. I have promised myself to study this issue further.

[curtsibling]

Hitler and Stalin were never friends.

It was an infernal alliance, borne of convenience.
As soon as the first opportunity arose, the daggers were out.

If Adolf had not made his fateful move, then Stalin would have soon enough.

Such insane regimes could never live side by side....

.

[Ned]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Hitler and Stalin were never friends.

It was an infernal alliance, borne of convenience.
As soon as the first opportunity arose, the daggers were out.

If Adolf had not made his fateful move, then Stalin would have soon enough.

Such insane regimes could never live side by side....

.

You should read what Hitler actually said about Stalin at that time. A lot of the German government simply could not understand Hitler's seemingly genuine change of heart.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Whoha


I think American companies built some/most of the Russian Railroads.

Not terribly sure about that one.
I would like to see some sources proving your claim, sir.

Russia had the cheap manpower to make their vast RR network, without foreign help.

I could believe the Lend-Lease provided locomotives, gauged to suit Ivan RRs, though.

.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Ned


You should read what Hitler actually said about Stalin at that time. A lot of the German government simply could not understand Hitler's seemingly genuine change of heart.

I know plenty about the abortive Berlin/Moscow accord.

And both leaders were political animals, ready to say rosy words...With their hands on the revolvers.

If you understand red bolshevism and the NSDAP respectively,
then you will see that both these powers were destined
for battle to the death. Hate for communism was at the
very heart of Hitler's racial/political ideology.

Likewise, the struggle to crush facsim was at the total
centre point of Stalin's communist death machinery...

War was unavoidable.

.

[Ned]

Originally posted by curtsibling


I know plenty about the abortive Berlin/Moscow accord.

And both leaders were political animals, ready to say rosy words...With their hands on the revolvers.

If you understand red bolshevism and the NSDAP respectively,
then you will see that both these powers were destined
for battle to the death. Hate for communism was at the
very heart of Hitler's racial/political ideology.

Likewise, the struggle to crush facsim was at the total
centre point of Stalin's communist death machinery...

War was unavoidable.

.

True, but Hitler went out of his way to say that Stalin's government was no longer communist. He said it was very much like the government of Germany, which, in truth, it was.

[Patroklos]

BS, the Americans suffered similar casualties in the battle of the Bulge.

The most ridiculous assesment yet to be made.

commence shooling...

Until recently the Russians had claimed that they lost 10,000 men during the battle for the Seelow Heights and 100,000 in Berlin. The actual figures are unknown. Yet no less than 30,000 Red Army soldiers were killed at Seelow, and the staggering figure of 600,000 killed in Berlin seems more plausible. Konev complained at one point that he was losing 1,000 men a day because Zhukov's artillery failed to shift fire when asked. Zhukov denied that allegation, stating that Konev was not using his troops intelligently.

link

That is 630,000 dead ALONE! The casualties were in the millions, thouusands and thousands of tanks lost. And this was just Berlin, add in Breslau, Waraw, East Prussia... The Americans suffered no where near these casualties at the Battle of the Bulge.

78,000 casualties
(8,607 dead,
21,144 missing,
23,500 prisoners,
47,139 wounded);
733 tanks lost

link

I can see how 9,000 dead would be the same blow as 630,000 dead.

[Fake Boris]

Yeah, take whatever source from the Internet, with no cites.

Nice job.

BTW, the claim of 100,000 casualties was related to Warsaw, not Seelow.

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, take whatever source from the Internet, with no cites.

He provided links...

[Patroklos]

He provided links...

Perhaps Boris is having technical difficulties.

Not that any of those sources mentions Warsaw, but Warsaw was indeed part of the Vistula Offensive. So if you yourself claim only a part of the Vistula Offensive produced 100,000 casualties, and the Ardennes only 9,000, how is it the are the same?

And just so you know Seelow was only the first tenth of the entire Oder Offensive, and that alone yeilded three times the casualties of the Ardennes in only 4 days. Not to mention more tank losses on just the Soviet side than both the Germans and the Americans combined in the Battle of the Bulge (thats true for men too).

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Ned


True, but Hitler went out of his way to say that Stalin's government was no longer communist. He said it was very much like the government of Germany, which, in truth, it was.

Indeed - Stalin did run the USSR in his own fashion, throwing so-called communism from the window as soon as it suited him.

Though, it was only a matter of time before the Nazi/Soviet ideologies clashed.

Also:
If not for the atom bomb and Stalins's death, total war
with the USSR would have happened without doubt.

.

[chequita guevara]

Why?