Multi-linguals: please help dv8ed with his paper! (survey)

[Solver]

Is this an issue in and of itself, or is it more of a smaller battlefront in a larger cultural war? I don't know enough about the ethinc makeup of Latvia to know what's going on, but is it largely just a holdover from the Soviet era, or is there a large enough ethnic Russian population that this is going to be an ongoing issue? I know you said later that Russian was in decline, but is there a block that will keep it as a primary language over generations, even though the official language is Latvian?

It's definitely only a part of the larger problem. The ethnic Russian population is very large, definitely above one third of the country population, probably close to 40%. Most of these Russians, though, are willing to speak Latvian and respect Latvian culture. I believe (and so the evidence indicates) that the problem will decrease. Most Russian young people are quite tolerant and learn Latvian, and there seem to be fewer of those "We will only speak Russian" types. Another 10 years later, this will likely only be a problem with very small parts of the population that do want this to be a problem.

Is this because they actually want to teach Latvian, or is it an just expectation of the government that is being followed (grudgingly or willingly)?

According to the new law, at least 40% of subjects in minority schools have to be taught in Latvian. As far as teaching languages goes, though, most teachers in Russian schools really want to teach both Latvian and English, because they believe that the young people will be at a severe disadvantage not knowing these languages. Which is true - English is obvious, and not knowing the official state language is also always a minus.

While people in government should speak Latvian, has there been any sort of effort to also ensure that they speak Russian as well, just as a matter of pragmatism?

No. It's not several years since debates about Russian as a second official language have ceased, with the proposal to add Russian as official meeting no real support in the parlament. Note that we have a large number of state-owned institutions here,and they're the ones I also meant when I said you're supposed to speak Latvian there. Though this goes for most instiutions anyway. Obviously, official letters and responses have to be written in Latvian, too.

[RGBVideo]

Random question just because I'm curious: Do people generally just use alternative language schools because that's the language they know, or do some people go to different schools to help them assimilate a language they're trying to learn?

I know a person who went to an English speaking high school because she wanted to brushen up her English for her future job (journalist). I think both ppl generally go to such schools because that's their primary language (they are fairly rare, after all), but some go to them in order to assimilate the language properly. So both statements are true.

[Atahualpa]

Why did you learn English? What is the general situation of English (and people who speak it) where you are? Has the current political climate changed that at all?

Strange question, here you cannot really NOT learn english nowadays. Even if you drop out of school as soon as possible you should have at least around 5 years of english classes. Surely not the best english, but enough for making yourself understood.
Ofc people forget most of it when they don't use it, but with the internet and such I guess that is getting harder and harder...
Also there are lots of english words that get adopted in german. Sometimes I think it would be better to have an organization such as the french or spanish that would watch over the language and at least provide alternatives (it doesn't need to come so far as to forbid the use of english words in newspapers or such)... for example in the german windows it states: "Die Updates wurden gedownloadet" (The updates were downloaded)
And in normal language people say "downgeloadet" or something like that and it's pretty common (and pretty awful too)

I always shook my head about the french ambitions to maintain their language, now I think this is actually a good idea. Ofc, I still think the french are way too harsh and proper english should be taught at school!

The problem is that it's way easy to use english words in german, because they fit quite well due to their germanic origins.

[KrazyHorse]

From Montreal, Quebec, Canada

In terms of provinces, only New Brunswick and Quebec have significant French-speaking populations. In the rest of the country the linguistic makeup is probably similar to the United States, minus Hispanics.

From this point on, when I say "French" I mean "having mother tongue French", etc.:

New Brunswick is around half French half English, IIRC.

Quebec is about 80% French, 10% English, 10% other. The percentage of English used to be significantly higher (~15%), but has steadily declined since around the early 70s.

Prior to that time, economic and political power were held by a group in which the English were heavily overrepresented. In addition, the French people in this upper class were highly educated, and tended to be completely bilingual, whereas the French lower class was not bilingual. In the 60s was what we in Quebec refer to as the "silent revolution", when the power of the Catholic Church among the French majority declined, when this French majority began to get educated to an extent never before seen, etc. This shifted the political balance of power to the point where the province was split between sovereigntists and federalists, and even the party of the federalists (the provincial Liberal party) was willing to pass legislation which would be considered discriminatory in many places against the English minority.

Nowadays, the English minority is heavily bilingual. The level of bilingualism is not as strongly dependent on socio-economic status or education as you might think, because many of the middle and upper-class English people still live in areas where they form a majority (namely on the Western half of the island of Montreal), whereas many of the working class English people live on the border areas between the English and French sections, and are required to learn French simply to survive. Some of the older generation are still unilingual (for instance, my father's sisters cannot speak French). There are a couple of other areas inside Quebec off the island of Montreal where the English population is either a majority or a strong minority: in the Gatineau (just across the border from Ontario, very close to Ottawa) and in the Eastern Townships (east of the island of Montreal, small farming communities settled by the English in the 19th century).

As for the French speaking population, the level of bilingualism is heavily dependent on socio-economic status, education and location (all three are of course very interdependent as well). The most highly educated, richest and most bilingual French speakers live either in Montreal, Quebec City or the Gatineau. The poorest, least educated and least bilingual French speakers live outside these major cities, in rural areas or in smaller towns.

As to the "allophone" population (i.e. neither French nor English): most are functional in both French and English, most in Quebec live in the Montreal area, and most can be politically considered to be "English", in that their support for sovereignty is very low, that they tend to vote Liberal both in federal and provincial elections, etc.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It's definitely only a part of the larger problem. The ethnic Russian population is very large, definitely above one third of the country population, probably close to 40%. Most of these Russians, though, are willing to speak Latvian and respect Latvian culture. I believe (and so the evidence indicates) that the problem will decrease. Most Russian young people are quite tolerant and learn Latvian, and there seem to be fewer of those "We will only speak Russian" types. Another 10 years later, this will likely only be a problem with very small parts of the population that do want this to be a problem.

Do you think they are going to give up Russian for Latvian altogether, though? Or just retain Russian within their own communities, and use Latvian in public/official/business settings where they deal with people outside the ethnic Russian population?

(By the way, how similar are Latvian and Russian? Does any mixing of the two seem to show up much?)

No. It's not several years since debates about Russian as a second official language have ceased, with the proposal to add Russian as official meeting no real support in the parlament. Note that we have a large number of state-owned institutions here,and they're the ones I also meant when I said you're supposed to speak Latvian there. Though this goes for most instiutions anyway. Obviously, official letters and responses have to be written in Latvian, too.

Hmm. I guess I wasn't asking so much about making it an official language as treating it as an 'unofficial official' language, like Spanish is in parts of the southwestern US, where the rest of the country pretty much sticks to English but the SW tends to have a lot of support for Spanish. (Obviously, the cases are a little different, since the US technically has no official language.)

[KrazyHorse]

I'm a native English speaker, by the way. I learned French starting at around 5, when I was put in a French immersion program in school (half the day was in French, half in English), a situation which continued until I was 14 or so. By this point I can probably be considered fairly fluently bilingual, though I do have a readily identifiable accent while speaking French.

My mother is a native French speaker who learned English at a very early age (starting at around 5 years old she was put in an English school). She is possibly the most fluently bilingual person I have ever met. She will be taken as a native speaker of either French or English by anybody who tried to judge her ability.


My father is a native English speaker who learned French starting in his twenties. He is fully functional in French, but he speaks what would be considered the lowest-class version of French possible. It's full of grammatical mistakes, steals phrases from English whenever possible, etc. ("est-ce que t'en ai mis des nouveaux tires sur ton car", for example ) In addition, his accent is horrendous. However, given the age at which he began to learn French, it's an impressive achievement.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

What languages are commonly spoken in your country? Do any of them hold overt or implied prestige over the others?

In general, who speaks which languages? (looking at social factors-education level, age, gender, ethnicity, occupation, geographic region, etc.)

In areas where there is more than one primary language, are there advantages to speaking one language over another? If most people know more than one language, what are the deciding factors for which second+ language you learn?

For what situations is one language appropriate or not? (Education, family, home, work, etc.)

Why did you learn English? What is the general situation of English (and people who speak it) where you are? Has the current political climate changed that at all?

(1) Swiss French, Swiss German, Italian, Romasch. Swiss german holds a preference

(2) Westerners speak Swiss French. Central and northerners speak Swiss German. South Easterners speak Italian. Eastern Mountain people speak romasch. English spoken by foreigners and increasingly, between Swiss French and Swiss Germans.

(3) NA

(4) NA

(5) Learned english cuz I grew up in America, both parents foreigners from different countries, english was the only way to communicate between them.

[Solver]

Do you think they are going to give up Russian for Latvian altogether, though? Or just retain Russian within their own communities, and use Latvian in public/official/business settings where they deal with people outside the ethnic Russian population?

Ethnic Russians will definitely keep their language, minorities should always do so but I hope and believe that all ethnic Russians will be proficient with Latvian soon.

(By the way, how similar are Latvian and Russian? Does any mixing of the two seem to show up much?)

Not at all. Russian is a Slavic language using Cyrillic alphabet, Latvian is a Baltic language with an extended Latin alphabet. The grammar and sounding is completely different, although historically, many Latvian words have Slavic roots, but those Slavic words don't exist anymore either. So they're not similar. As for mixing... not really. Unless you count people who use Russian swearwords when speaking Latvian. OK, that's quite common.

Hmm. I guess I wasn't asking so much about making it an official language as treating it as an 'unofficial official' language, like Spanish is in parts of the southwestern US, where the rest of the country pretty much sticks to English but the SW tends to have a lot of support for Spanish.

Russian is 'unofficial official' in the sense that you'll be understood with Russian almost anywhere and can, say, book a place in a hotel and order a meal in a restaurant just as easily as in Latvian or English. However, this is actually decreasing, as young Latvians from purely ethnic Latvian families speak Russian poorly now, so the 'unofficial oficiality' of Russian is a decreasing trend.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
This shifted the political balance of power to the point where the province was split between sovereigntists and federalists, and even the party of the federalists (the provincial Liberal party) was willing to pass legislation which would be considered discriminatory in many places against the English minority.

What sort of laws? Are they all still in place? I know some of the situation, just because I'm not that far off, but I guess I don't know the current legal standing of the two languages. I had always thought that Quebec was thoroughly bilingual at this point, but now that I think about it, I guess I've only really spent time in Montreal and the French-speaking parts of northern Maine, both of which have strong incentives to be bilingual. I've never spent any time in rural Quebec.

[KrazyHorse]

1) The sign law: changes form over the years. Restricts or prohibits to different extents the use of languages other than French on outdoors signs

2) Education law: only children of people educated in English in Quebec may attend English schools. All others must attend French schools.

3) Business law: some godawful regulation that says that Quebec businesses must do most of their work in French. Largely ignored by businesses. Every few years the government makes noises that it will begin to enforce said law. Nobody ever listens to them.

Quebec society is becoming more and more bilingual. To a certain extent, some in politics want to halt this process in order to preserve the dominance of French.

[spartak]

I have to day I was very impressed with the range and power of Russian profanity when I was learning the language and my wife if appalled by the fact that my best Russian accent is reserved for swearing.

[/sorry for the threadjack]

[Hueij]

What languages are commonly spoken in your country? Do any of them hold overt or implied prestige over the others?

In general, who speaks which languages? (looking at social factors-education level, age, gender, ethnicity, occupation, geographic region, etc.)

In areas where there is more than one primary language, are there advantages to speaking one language over another? If most people know more than one language, what are the deciding factors for which second+ language you learn?

For what situations is one language appropriate or not? (Education, family, home, work, etc.)

Why did you learn English? What is the general situation of English (and people who speak it) where you are? Has the current political climate changed that at all?

1: Dutch

2: Everyone

3: ...

4: ...

5: In high school it is required to learn at least one foreign language and I choose English (me and everyone else)