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Reagan, the Cold War, and the people of Eastern Europe

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  • Reagan, the Cold War, and the people of Eastern Europe

    I was going to post this in Che's Vietnam thread, but the discourse moved away from the point I wanted to make.

    I really hate and despise how Reagan gets all the credit for ending the Cold War. I don't hate it because I think that Reagan did things that lengthened the cold war, or made it worse. In fact, I'm willing to accept that his policies ended up putting more international pressure on the USSR than existed before. I hate the crediting of Reagan because he was not critical to the collapse of the USSR.

    The people who were are the people of the Warsaw Pact, the people making up Solidarity, the people "living in truth" in Hungary, in the Czechleslovakia, and elsewhere. It was these people who undid the totalitarian regimes in place in their countries, not by challenging it outright, but by building communities outside the jurisdiction of the State. These people were somewhat supported by the West, primarily by John Paul II and the Church, but not really by the US (where was the US in 1948? In 1956? In 1968? And didn't something go down in 1960 as well?).

    It was these people who forced reform in the Warsaw Pact, who made Gorbachev realize that the USSR could not survive without restructuring, and whose power prevented Gorbachev from brutally repressing the breakaway republics the way he may have wanted to.

    The dominant theory of power in the West holds that force equals power, and this has precluded recognition of the resistence in Eastern Europe. They didn't use force, they did not resort to violence (Romania is the exception), so in the eyes of many, there has to be some other impetuous for the collapse of the USSR. These people have turned to Reagan, for he is an obvious substitute. He was the most prominent anti-communist, he stepped up the rhetoric, he must be responsible.

    And this really points to a greater failing. We like to look for problems in the USSR in its economy. It was Communist, therefore in its economy we can find its fatal flaws. And here, we are deluding ourselves. Yes, Reagan's arms race put a strain on the Soviet economy, but that, on its own, is meaningless. The South's economy was in shambles during the Civil War here, and yet they fought on. The economy only becomes an issue when there are greater problems.

    And the real problem is the authoritarian/totalitarian state. In the Warsaw Pact, it was the violence of the state that became the problem. In the face of a hostile state, and especially with that state being the puppet of a foreign power, the power of the discontented masses won the day. Hannah Arendt argues that violence and power are mutually exclusive, and that a state perpetuated by violence must eventually fall. The Eastern Bloc demonstrates just that. The people opposed the state monopoly of violence with constructive nonviolence, building broad movements like Solidarity that did not violently challenge the state but created a system where the violence of the state became irrelevent.

    In order to maintain control over the Eastern Bloc at this point, the USSR would have had to kill the vast majority of the people there. Had Gorbachev sought to retain control, he would have fought a bloody war that in the end would have failed just as the Soviets failed in Afghanistan, and we failed in Vietnam. It is in recognizing this that Gorbachev shows his leadership skills.

    The question, then, is how this transfers into the implosion of the USSR. Basically, the totalitarian USSR only survived because it kept people ignorant about the West, with the people accepting their oppression because they accepted the state-constructed differences between themselves and the West. When Gorbachev allowed liberalization of the Warsaw Pact, people in the USSR demanded the same rights, especially in places like the Baltic Republics, which still remembered their pre-WWII independence. Once again, with the people on the side of reform, Gorbachev would've had to fight a very difficult guerilla war to maintain Soviet unity. It is worth noting that when the hardline communists launched a coup, the spirit of reform had spread so much that the soldiers themselves, often thought by politicians to be pawns without independent thought, identified with the reformers more than their superiors, and refused to obey orders.

    So, my overall point is that the "Reagan Ended the Cold War" crowd not only distort history, they do it in such a way as to rob a truly brave group of people the recognition these people deserve. Once again, Reagan did contribute to an economic crunch that exacerbated conditions and may have shortened the USSR's life by a couple of years. But the seeds for the defeat of the USSR were sown in ashes of the Prague Spring of 1968, and were tended by the people of the Eastern Bloc. Had Reagan been the only power opposed to the USSR, we would still be in a cold war today.
    "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

  • #2
    Re: Reagan, the Cold War, and the people of Eastern Europe

    Originally posted by Admiral
    So, my overall point is that the "Reagan Ended the Cold War" crowd not only distort history, they do it in such a way as to rob a truly brave group of people the recognition these people deserve. Once again, Reagan did contribute to an economic crunch that exacerbated conditions and may have shortened the USSR's life by a couple of years. But the seeds for the defeat of the USSR were sown in ashes of the Prague Spring of 1968, and were tended by the people of the Eastern Bloc. Had Reagan been the only power opposed to the USSR, we would still be in a cold war today.
    The Reagan-loving Right distorts history? naaaaaaaaaaaaaah

    I agree entirely with that last paragraph.
    A true ally stabs you in the front.

    Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)

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    • #3
      The Reagan loving right are on borrowed time. Soon they'll all be forced to be homosexuals.

      Agree with most of what you say, Ad. I think the economy was not well planned and the drop in oil prices was not good for the USSR.
      Only feebs vote.

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      • #4
        This phenomenon is dealt with in last year's "The Unconquerable World" by Jonathan Schell.

        I know I've mentioned this book in a few threads on similar threads about power/politics/international relations/state-citizen relations, but it's certainly worth another mention. One day someone will say "oh. yeah. I read that on your recommendation...its was good" and then I'll be happy.

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        • #5
          It all started going downhill for the Rooskies when I took up my post on the border with East Germany in late '75. Lets see, born in '58, plus 17, yeah, '75. As a Cavalry trooper I was charged with the mission of crushing the red menace if they dared venture forth from their dark lair. It is said that they were about to do so, but the imposing sight of my slight but wirey 17 year old form standing astride the border, resolutely with weapon held high, gave them pause, and left a yellow puddle at their feet.

          Yup, I won the cold war in my early days, left them commies an empty shell which nevertheless took some time to fall. Reagan finished my work, finished that evil empire, God bless him.

          That was just the begining for me, I'll have to tell you the epic saga of my entire life one day, but most of you are far too young to hear the tails of my greater conquests.

          You see, chicks dig me, but who can blame them? Were it not for Ted Striker, I would be the foremost stud on these forums.
          Long time member @ Apolyton
          Civilization player since the dawn of time

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
            This phenomenon is dealt with in last year's "The Unconquerable World" by Jonathan Schell.

            I know I've mentioned this book in a few threads on similar threads about power/politics/international relations/state-citizen relations, but it's certainly worth another mention. One day someone will say "oh. yeah. I read that on your recommendation...its was good" and then I'll be happy.
            I'll try to read this. I've put a sticky note on my desktop. Happy now?
            Only feebs vote.

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            • #7
              The Soviets staqrted to nose dive in the 1970's well before Reagon arrived on the scene. If there was no Reagon then the Soviets still would have gone bust so it is a lie to claim Reagon was responsible for what occured. Reagon's economic warfare from the arms race did move things forward a few years but not much nor did it change the enivetable.
              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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              • #8
                You lie Oerdin!! Reagan cured my impotence.
                Only feebs vote.

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                • #9
                  Reagan cured my impotence.


                  Well, they did say that Nancy gave the best blowjobs in Hollywood.

                  Though why a blowjob from a 74 year-old Nancy Reagan would cure your impotence, I'll never understand...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JohnT
                    Reagan cured my impotence.


                    Well, they did say that Nancy gave the best blowjobs in Hollywood.
                    By "they" he means Robert Mitcham. Boy was that a great story. Robert and some other actor driving to Vegas with Nancy taking turns on each of them the whole way there.
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lancer
                      It all started going downhill for the Rooskies when I took up my post on the border with East Germany in late '75. Lets see, born in '58, plus 17, yeah, '75. As a Cavalry trooper I was charged with the mission of crushing the red menace if they dared venture forth from their dark lair. It is said that they were about to do so, but the imposing sight of my slight but wirey 17 year old form standing astride the border, resolutely with weapon held high, gave them pause, and left a yellow puddle at their feet.

                      Yup, I won the cold war in my early days, left them commies an empty shell which nevertheless took some time to fall. Reagan finished my work, finished that evil empire, God bless him.

                      That was just the begining for me, I'll have to tell you the epic saga of my entire life one day, but most of you are far too young to hear the tails of my greater conquests.

                      You see, chicks dig me, but who can blame them? Were it not for Ted Striker, I would be the foremost stud on these forums.
                      GIVE 'EM HELL LANCER!!!!!!!
                      We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                      • #12
                        Re: Reagan, the Cold War, and the people of Eastern Europe

                        Originally posted by Admiral


                        So, my overall point is that the "Reagan Ended the Cold War" crowd not only distort history, they do it in such a way as to rob a truly brave group of people the recognition these people deserve.
                        I completely agree with this point.


                        Disregarding the role of leaders in Eastern Europe in the collapse of communist governments is akin to those who completely disregard the role of the Union in the Confederate defeat in the Civil War.

                        "Why did the Confederacy lose the war?"

                        "Well, I reckon the Yankees had something to do with it."
                        A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

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                        • #13
                          "GIVE 'EM HELL LANCER!!!!!!!"

                          Long time member @ Apolyton
                          Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
                            This phenomenon is dealt with in last year's "The Unconquerable World" by Jonathan Schell.

                            I know I've mentioned this book in a few threads on similar threads about power/politics/international relations/state-citizen relations, but it's certainly worth another mention. One day someone will say "oh. yeah. I read that on your recommendation...its was good" and then I'll be happy.
                            I wish I could say that I read Schell based on your recommendation, but it was actually required reading. However, I based much of the above on Schell.
                            "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Reagan, the Cold War, and the people of Eastern Europe

                              [SIZE=1]

                              The people who were are the people of the Warsaw Pact, the people making up Solidarity, the people "living in truth" in Hungary, in the Czechleslovakia, and elsewhere.
                              Solidarity
                              I agree. The Poles never get enough credit. Those guys took on Panzers with Calvary.
                              Of course they didn't fare to well...

                              Forget Reagan for a sec., wasn't communism simply outdone by capitalism?
                              Or better put – the threat of communism was outdone by the promise of capitalism.
                              "Is your sword as sharp as your tongue"? Capt. Esteban
                              "Is yours as dull as your wit"? Don Diego Vega

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