A380 takes off

[Dauphin]

Remind me, how big are the subsidies/tax breaks Boeing gets directly?

[alva]

European contractors can and do win large lucrative defense contracts so how is it when Boeing competes and wins in this market that it is some how a subsidy?

The same as our ***** defense minister does? Construct the order in such a fashion that there's only one company in the world that can make it...which just happened to be located in his home town.

[Ming]

In 2004, Boeing got $2,468,121,000 in defense contracts. (Oh, and I was incorrect, Boeing has lost the number one spot in 2004 to Northrup)

That is a HUGE revenue stream and allows Boeing to better survive the ups and downs of the commercial aircraft business, and to invest in the future... And much of the research they do on military aircrafts can be moved to the commercial side of the business at very little additional cost... Alloys, avionics, design elements needed for their defense work is built into the commercial aircraft as relevent. This is a distinct advantage that Airbus doesn't have. Think about it... an almost guaranteed revenue stream of 2.6 billion dollars... while Airbus has to rely on non guaranteed orders from airlines for future possible delivery of aircraft. They need the loans and subsidies...

[Dinner]

There are claims that the Japanese government has given a Japanese supplier a direct subsidy and I have heard the states of Washington and Utah have agreed to wave property taxes on the Boeing plants in those states in order to keep the company from moving production to lower cost areas. The Japanese government's subsidy to that one supplier isn't a subsidy to Boeing and instead is a Japanese subsidy to its industry and Boeing just bought parts from the cheapest supplier but the waving of local taxes is a small but direct subsidy. I'd guess it couldn't amount to more then a few million in saved propertry taxes. Airbus on the other hand gets massive public finanancing of its debts and free start up capital for every project. We are talking about orders of magnitude difference.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ming
This is a distinct advantage that Airbus doesn't have. Think about it... an almost guaranteed revenue stream of 2.6 billion dollars... while Airbus has to rely on non guaranteed orders from airlines for future possible delivery of aircraft. They need the loans and subsidies...

I agree being commercially successful in all areas is a distinct advantage but Airbus is free to compete for those orders just like Boeing does. European manufacturers do great when it comes to US military projects the number two defense contractor is British Aerospace while all US Army rifles are made by a German company and all 9mm pistols are made by an Italian company. Europeans can and do compete and win in the defense contract business.

Boeing has worked hard to come up with good defense products and they've won those contracts while facing stiff competition; there was no free gifts or free rides. They had to work for those contracts and now the company is enjoy profits based upon that hard work and those innovative products.

Airbus didn't have to compete for the business of the various European State owned Airlines though since they are legally required to purchase only Airbus planes. You want to talk about subsidies lets talk about a locked in maket with some of the largest airlines in Europe and that is on top of all the direct cash subsidies. This is unfair protectionism and its harming American business.

[MikeH]

And protecting European business. That's the European governments' job.

[DinoDoc]

Then why open the can of worms of whining about Boeing.

[Dinner]

Except it violates trade rules.

[DeathByTheSword]

I agree being commercially successful in all areas is a distinct advantage but Airbus is free to compete for those orders just like Boeing does. European manufacturers do great when it comes to US military projects the number two defense contractor is British Aerospace while all US Army rifles are made by a German company and all 9mm pistols are made by an Italian company. Europeans can and do compete and win in the defense contract business.

Boeing has worked hard to come up with good defense products and they've won those contracts while facing stiff competition; there was no free gifts or free rides. They had to work for those contracts and now the company is enjoy profits based upon that hard work and those innovative products.

Airbus didn't have to compete for the business of the various European State owned Airlines though since they are legally required to purchase only Airbus planes. You want to talk about subsidies lets talk about a locked in maket with some of the largest airlines in Europe and that is on top of all the direct cash subsidies. This is unfair protectionism and its harming American business.

might i remind you all that when saudi-arabia wanted to renew its fleet of transport aircraft they wanted to buy airbus...but then the president of boeing called the president of the US who then called the saudi's telling them: buy boeing or you lose all your military contracts with the US...and suddenly the went with boeing not because it was the better choice plane wise but because boeing needed the 2 billion + contract with saudi-arabia

[DeathByTheSword]

my point being that boeing gets as much help as airbus is getting believe it or not

[Dinner]

I'm not seeing the subsidy and instead I see the American government trying to correct the imbalances created by the massive direct cash which European governments put into Airbus's pockets. The Saudis likely decided on Airbus planes because they were cheaper and the reason the planes were cheaper is because of cash subsidies from European governments. Also do you have any evidence that the US threatened Saudi Arabia if it didn't switch the contracts verses simply conducting diplomacy about a politically important sale?

[Thorgal]

Airbus didn't have to compete for the business of the various European State owned Airlines though since they are legally required to purchase only Airbus planes.

False. And the only Only-Airbus airlines i can think now is Frontier Airlines or Jetblue both American airlines.

What Cry babes. "Oh no they have built a plane bigger that any of ours, what humiliation". What a losser attitude.
90% of airbus contracts are for non-europeans airlines. There is about 1300 Airbus in North America Airlines only. It is simple: Airbus builds better products, so Airbus wins contracts.

About defense trade, do you think USA government doesnt protect American defense bussines? I would say it is his first priority.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Thorgal
About defense trade, do you think USA government doesnt protect American defense bussines? I would say it is his first priority.

Then why would Euros open the can of worms of whining about Boeing.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Except it violates trade rules.

When everyone else sticks to them we will, until then why shoot ourselves in the feet.

[DeathByTheSword]

Also do you have any evidence that the US threatened Saudi Arabia if it didn't switch the contracts verses simply conducting diplomacy about a politically important sale?

conducting dimplomacy vs. threating...dont see much difference

but to answer your question no...i will have to look it up...got the story and link from my professor aerodynamics and FUEL ECONOMY ....and he is an american btw