Armenian genocide

[chequita guevara]

to the news of a commission.

[Harovan]

Not only did I read it as American genocide, but I misread Ararat as Arafat in the opening post also.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ancyrean, I justify you if you think I'm a nationalist (I don't speak for the others they can think what they want ) because I trolled the others with that Greece Turkey thing. That's just for the record. If anything you won't find a nationalist admitting things that are still taboo or simply ignored in Greece, like what happened when Greeks entered Asia Minor.

Couple of things on the things I read from your posts (too little time to read it all).

The correspondance between Germany and Turkey at that time exists. Just pick up the book by Balakian and see it. There are other sources I'm sure but that's the one I know.

Armenians were indeed killed deliberately and it wasn't a "savage" (don't take it I speak exclusively for Turks here, all are capable of that unfortunately) orderless massacre.

The Genocide of the pontiac Greeks is not recognized by "nationalists" only. Fact is there was a huge greek presence in Pontus and now there is none.

About thracian genocide etc, that doesn't exist as a day of mourning in Greece. (that in case you didn't know)

It is true what you say about the exchange of populations. Yes, it was agreed by the defeated Greece and the winner Turkey (which incidently was formed as a modern state after 1922 - it seems history and interaction is decisive between us in our creation as "new states" )

Two things about the exchange of populations. Greeks by million+ that were living in these parts for centuries were made to leave. The Turks living in Greece were just a fraction of the "Greek" number. That without wanting to "measure" misery.

Before that was agreed Smyrna was burned. Something that has been deplored all over Europe at that time. It was a veritable massacre anyway you look at it.

My personal opinion is that you shy away from admitting things that if you did (not you, Turkey) would be better for putting "ghosts to rest" so to speak. But you can't deny and I know that nationalist feelings run amok in Turkey and it will take a long time of feelling secure (I'm sure you don't feel insecure from us but from Kurds) for admitting things.
If that sounds patronizing I apologize, it isnot my intention to be that.

Now of course all of that is just crap really because if you take the average Greek and the average Turk and put them together on a table with some raki they'll have a lot of other pleasant things to talk about and in codes that are very familiar between the two, more so that the codes between some other people.

Anyway, the water has been put on the channel so to speak and some things have taken their course, for the better I believe. Well that''s all.

Oh one last thing, unpleasant for Turkey but true, Germany (and France and many other countries) have indeed recognized the armenian genocide. I remember Turkey threatening France to cut all economic ties with her if she did, at the time she did.

Anyway, that's all

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


What probably wasn't quoted in the NPR piece (I couldn't listen to it yet) is that Turkey is trying to start a dialogue on the issue, offering Armenians to present whatever evidence they have for their claims, in exchange for our evidence for our perspective. But after an initial exchange of a limited number of documents, Armenia stopped to respond to this.

That "dialogue" does not appear to have reached Turkey's ministry of Culture, as their website shows.

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3346

The above link is an example. Take all the deaths occurring at the time, overlook the fact that Russians were invading and it was a open war zone- and blame it on Armenians.

Here's an example of Spin Doctors at work-

The number of Armenians who were made to migrate through various means was strictly controlled, both at departure, and at the arrival of a convoy to its new destination. According to figures taken from pertinent documents of the Ottoman Archives: A total of 438.758 people were relocated and 382.148 of these safely reached their new destinations.

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3364

And more-

The Armenians have managed to deceive the world public opinion for a long period by hiding behind the false documents. The Armenian massacre stories, which began with 300.000s and came to 3.000.000s have no basis. Likewise during the invasion of Istanbul, both the English and the French have sufficiently investigated the Ottoman archive and since they have not been able to submit any documents in relation with the Armenian genocide, they must not have found any such document.

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3382

And finally, and most insultingly-

If the Ottoman State had any intention of subjecting the Armenians to "genocide", wouldn't it commit it where the Armenians lived? What was the need for such expense made during the relocation and so many commercial and military precautions that needed to be taken?

The purpose of the relocation which the world's most successful resettlement program has never been eliminating Armenians but was born out of a compulsory need of providing state security.

...and that's the official line.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Armenians kinda remind me of the Albanian Kosovars. They all claim, "We didn't do nothing. We were minding our own business when the evil Serbs/Turks came and slaughtered us!" Funny how Pattycakes can be on opposite sides of the same phenomenon.

#1, nothing anyone does deserves Genocide as a response.

#2, the Armenians weren't innocent. They were attempting to ethnically cleanse their area at the same time as rising up against the Ottoman Empire during the World War.

You've been influenced by Turkish propaganda, despite all its silliness. How could Armenians, especially if You accept Turkish statistics which claim 10-20, 33 in one case percentage of Armenians in Western Armenia,
could engage in ethnic cleansing, under Turkish rule?
The holocaust of Armenians (or whatever You call it) took place before Russians entered the area, that is when Armenians could actually do something to Muslim population. Also, Armenian revolts started in result of "deportation" orders, not deportations were the result of it.
Also, deportation concerned also Armenians of areas far from disorders or war front.

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Armenians were only a majority in a small portion of their historic territory. Most of the areas had a plurality of Turks, then Kurds, then Armenians. History has not been kind to them.

Only when You accept unreliable Turkish stats.

Remember that the Brits sponsored many revolts in the Ottoman Empire during the war. I don't find it unlikely that there was a widespread Armenian uprising. That, however, in no way justifies the response.

Brits didn't support uprisings as such. Arabs did not revolt in Syria. Brits just marched on it with Arabs of Higaz. That's a difference.

[quote]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


Well, it was pretty widespread. If you take a tour of Eastern Turkey, you'd be surprised how vividly those attacks and consequent killings are remembered even today.

I'm sure that if Germany didn't lose the war, You could hear nice stories from elderly Germans about the Jews as well.
Anyway, if there were some harms by Armenians, they could take place during Russian occupation, after the "deportation". Before that, Armenians, again I say, especially if You accept they were a tiny minority, could not do much.

It's true that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in the following relocations, but the Armenian claim of 1.5 million casualties are flatly exaggerated to increase the sense of victimhood. The overall number of Armenians in the whole of the Empire (including the Middle East) was less than 1.3 million, according to the Ottoman censuses and other sources quote similar numbers as well.

Those which base on Ottoman census, in which best interest was to lower the number of Armenians as much as it could.
And You know very well that Turkish gouverment and historians are not reliable in this matter. Armenian question was part of official propaganda for 90 years.

I know many instances when, upon your diclosure of your being Turkish, Armenians withdraw a hand they extended upon introduction, hang up the phone in your face, blush in anger and walk the other way, drop their smile in a sudden surge of hatred, etc etc etc. Why?

As someone's said, it's because Turks never apologised

The emotional and subjective intensity of Armenians make it so hard to communicate with them

As if Turks were better. And Armenians have more reasons to be emotional in that matter.

But this can't be in the form of a one sided act, as the issue in question did not involve only one side's suffering.

Because the sides were not equal rivals and they did not suffer equally

[Ecthy]

never trust a Greek about anything regarding the Turks. and vice versa.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Heresson
Only when You accept unreliable Turkish stats.

That Ottomans had been keeping records for centuries. They only started getting unreliable in the 19th Century. Most of historic Armenia was pretty evenly divided among Turk, Kurd, and Armenian, with Greeks and Syrians thrown in for flavor.

While this doesn't make the Amenian genocide justified, it's worth noting that the Armenians have successfully committed ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabask.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That's becuase the documents were destroyed. They were known to have existed, and the perpetrators of the genocide were sentenced to death during the war crimes trials at the end of WWI. The criminals escaped justice, however.

As for planned intent, what do you call it when you foreably uproot people and force them to march across a desert without food or water? That sounds like intent. Furthermore, no provisions were made for the Armenians to be someplace else.

Do you mean the documents must have been destroyed? Which documents do you mean to have existed? How can documents that should be so extensive in number as to cover the coordination of deportation and allegedly systematic killing of 1 million people be so comprehensively destroyed so that no clue of them whatsoever exist today? Does it really sound plausable to you?

As for planned intent, it's just wrong to look at the result and assume the intention according to the result. The point here is that the Ottomans felt compelled in dire desperation to relocate these people. This is crucially different from planning to kill off Armenians beforehand just based on hatred towards Armenians. That's the crucial ingredient in defining genocide.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
to the news of a commission.

Well, here's the fine print in President Kocaryan's reply, according to more detailed news that I read today: Armenia tied the acceptance of the offer about such a commission to establishment of diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia, opening of land borders and starting of direct trade, effectively presenting their acceptance as a "compromise" as if it has no merits on its own.

In a related development, 104 members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe signed a declaration supporting Erdogan's initiative.

Erdogan further offered to mutually open national archives without prejudice to the establishment any joint commission. That practically means Armenia opening its archives, as it refuses to do so whereas Turkey time and again declared its archives open.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The Genocide of the pontiac Greeks is not recognized by "nationalists" only. Fact is there was a huge greek presence in Pontus and now there is none.

That's largely due to the population exchange. I'm sure many people died during the Turkish-Greek war, but descendants of Pontian Greeks claim "Turks killed 350,000+" Greeks there. That's highly disputable.

Two things about the exchange of populations. Greeks by million+ that were living in these parts for centuries were made to leave. The Turks living in Greece were just a fraction of the "Greek" number. That without wanting to "measure" misery.

The population exchange was a true human tragedy. I guess you're right about the 1 million+ figure that had to leave Turkey, the number I remember for Turks leaving Greece is 400.000+. Of course, there were many previous waves of Turks that left during the Balkan wars. But the suffering and the difficulties that the refugees, Turkish or Greek, were immense. They never forgot the lands that they had to leave behind, always hoped to return, in vain...

My personal opinion is that you shy away from admitting things that if you did (not you, Turkey) would be better for putting "ghosts to rest" so to speak. But you can't deny and I know that nationalist feelings run amok in Turkey and it will take a long time of feelling secure (I'm sure you don't feel insecure from us but from Kurds) for admitting things.
If that sounds patronizing I apologize, it isnot my intention to be that.

No patronisation taken It's just that the period during and immediately after the WWI was a time of near-mortal danger, and Turkey and Turkish people were subjected to a great ordeal, including great loss of life. On top of the memory of that time, when those who have their own grievances against Turkey put it in so hostile a manner, it is hard to believe in their good faith.

Now of course all of that is just crap really because if you take the average Greek and the average Turk and put them together on a table with some raki they'll have a lot of other pleasant things to talk about and in codes that are very familiar between the two, more so that the codes between some other people.

I know, I've done it many times. Pou einei to ouzo mou;

Oh one last thing, unpleasant for Turkey but true, Germany (and France and many other countries) have indeed recognized the armenian genocide. I remember Turkey threatening France to cut all economic ties with her if she did, at the time she did.

I know that the French parliament, in a session attended by some 65 members out of 500+, accepted a law with the single sentence "France recognises the Armenian genocide". But Germany did not go that far yet, actually, they have a bill in the German parliament related to the Armenian issue these days, but apparently it avoids the word "genocide".

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


That "dialogue" does not appear to have reached Turkey's ministry of Culture, as their website shows.

...

...and that's the official line.

If a joint commission is formed to look into the matter of what happened in 1915, and its findings were contrary to the official line, then the official line will have to live with it.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Heresson
You've been influenced by Turkish propaganda, despite all its silliness. How could Armenians, especially if You accept Turkish statistics which claim 10-20, 33 in one case percentage of Armenians in Western Armenia,
could engage in ethnic cleansing, under Turkish rule?
The holocaust of Armenians (or whatever You call it) took place before Russians entered the area, that is when Armenians could actually do something to Muslim population. Also, Armenian revolts started in result of "deportation" orders, not deportations were the result of it.
Also, deportation concerned also Armenians of areas far from disorders or war front.

Heresson, we have been through this argument before in the previous genocide thread. What is it that makes you think that for a group of people to engage in armed insurgency they have to be in the majority?

Besides, if you mean Armenians were in fact a majority in Eastern Turkey as your tendency to regard the area as "Western Armenia" suggests, that is thoroughly fallacious. Trying to create that majority was the explicit goal of Armenian nationalists at the time.

About the Russians not being there yet, that's not a refuting argument because the point is that the Armenian insurgency became dire because a) they started to cause great loss of life among Turkish people and b) they started to distrurb the communications and supply lines of the Turkish army facing the Russians away from the region.

And no, deportations started after the insurgency was well under way, as evidenced by numerous reports from the governors of the vilayets at the time.

Brits didn't support uprisings as such. Arabs did not revolt in Syria. Brits just marched on it with Arabs of Higaz. That's a difference.

In this case Russians did. Armenian nationalists in Turkey was a prime asset for the tsarist Russian forces facing Turkish armies.

Anyway, if there were some harms by Armenians, they could take place during Russian occupation, after the "deportation". Before that, Armenians, again I say, especially if You accept they were a tiny minority, could not do much.

By which we make a full circle and come back to the same point, the somehow unbreakable connection with numbers and the ability to rise. Harm was done by Armenians both before and after the Russian occupation of the region.

And You know very well that Turkish gouverment and historians are not reliable in this matter. Armenian question was part of official propaganda for 90 years.

Perhaps I have to remind you that any talk of "genocide" started in seriousness only in 1965 by Armenians, and that in Soviet Armenia organised by the Soviet authorities. Before then, there was not much of an official line in Turkey against a not-yet-existing accusation.

As someone's said, it's because Turks never apologised

As I said before, the whole mentality of monopolising the pain and forgetting how it all started created that expectation of a one sided apology.

As if Turks were better. And Armenians have more reasons to be emotional in that matter.

The reason is they have made it the center of their national consciousness and the central theme keeping together the Armenian diaspora.

Because the sides were not equal rivals and they did not suffer equally

Even if the sides were not equal, the way Armenians present the issue to the world prevents any reconciliation.

[MrFun]

am I the only one that misread the title as american genocide?

no - I'm guilty too

[VetLegion]

Dis... that's a nickname I haven't seen in a while.

Wait... this was bumped by a bot, the thread is from 2005?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

A bit like trying to attract posters to rabbi.net by posting in a thread about the Waffen-SS.