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As I understand it, he was talking about marginal additions to the unemployment benefit period. Presumably, the first available job as a garbage picker-upper had long since passed.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891 -
So, it is agreed that unemployment benefits are good? Then, the question is at what level and for how long.
In the US, unemployment benefits are a bit like insurance in that employers pay into a pool according to their payroll, and that pool is tapped to pay for ongoing benefits (but at times, the pool can go into deficit and must be made up from general tax revenues)“It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of ManComment
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Exactly. I was just making an economic argument for the need for unemployment benefits.
Another argument is that unemployment is necessary in a capitalist economy. If we have full employment, we have upward inflationary pressure, we have unsustainable growth and you lack a pool of people that employers can employ when they need to - cyclical and seasonal unemployment. And if you accept that some unemployment is needed, then surely you must accept that those who are unemployed be kept alive, and thus given enough money to cover very basic living, for humanitarian reasons.
Unemployment isn't bad, too much unemployment is.Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - KuciwalkerComment
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Sure. I'm in for a little bit. Generous payments for a couple or three months.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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As for the necessity of unemployment, I've never been a big fan of that view. Rather, it would be much better for both employers and employees to make jobs less "sticky" while running at or near full employment.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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I agree, but with no unemployment, are you arguing there wouldn't be runaway inflation? Or that there doesn't need to be unemployment during recession parts of the business cycle so employment can rise later? Or even that tourism, agriculture and other industries don't necessitate seasonal employment, thus being unemployed at some parts of the year?
0 employment puts way to much pressure on businesses who can't then fire bad workers and hire others.Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - KuciwalkerComment
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In the US, inflation was pretty subdued in the late 90s with full employment. Full employment has happened so rarely lately that I don't know how you could prove a correllation. But as a start, you might look at those countries with full employment right now: Austria, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Korea, Switzerland, Norway, Singapore, Iceland, etc.I agree, but with no unemployment, are you arguing there wouldn't be runaway inflation?
In the late 90s, profits were hit, rather.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Full employment in the late 90s?
Didn't go below 3.9%.Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - KuciwalkerComment
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Austria was at 5.9 last summer. Any figures for 2005?
Unless by full employment you mean the economic definition of full employment (ie. at the natural rate), in which case I agree completely. However that includes some unemployment.Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - KuciwalkerComment
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3.8% was the lowest. But in any event, that's full employment in my book.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Ahh, you see, in my book, that's 3.8% unemployment. Hence there is still a need for some unemployment.Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - KuciwalkerComment
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I'm going more by how it feels than anything. At 3.8% unemployment, it feels like everyone who wants a job and has reasonable expectations of a fair wage has one or is on his way to finding one. That's full employment and it has happened only a couple years of my life -- in the late 90s.
I guess I'm questioning whether the economists have a good handle on what the natural rate is and think instead that it can go pretty damn low without creating undue inflation, depending on the circumstances.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Not quite. What's been happening recently is that the number of university graduates has been skyrocketing without a commensurate increase in jobs that require university-level skills. So unless you want a job for $2-3/hour a lot of people (especially new college grads) are getting the shaft hard.those countries with full employment right now...Korea
On the other end, a lot of people in their 50's are being forced into early retirement and out of the workforce, making the image of full employment a bit illusory...Stop Quoting BenComment
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Maybe $2 - $3 an hour is a reasonable expectation of a fair wage for entry into the workforce. Full employment doesn't mean to me that everybody gets paid what they want. On the other hand, the forced retirement is silly, I agree.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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That's 5.9% using the austrian definition of unemploymentOriginally posted by Drogue
Austria was at 5.9 last summer. Any figures for 2005?
Using the ILO standard measure (has been unemployed and actively seeking work in the last 4 weeks) the rate in February was 4.6%, slightly up on the 4.5% of last year.
You can find standardized unemployment rates at the OECD's website
Hmm, looking at that list you seem to define 'full employment' as unemployment below 5% - not too bad a definition.Originally posted by DanS
But as a start, you might look at those countries with full employment right now: Austria, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Korea, Switzerland, Norway, Singapore, Iceland, etc.
In that case the full list of OECD countries with full employment is:
Austria, Iceland*, Ireland, Japan, Luxembourg, Mexico*, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.
*these are not standardized rates so may not be comparable.
There are also a few countries who are between 5% and 6% unemployment so could be said to be approaching 'full employment' on your definition, they are: Australia, Denmark, Hungary and the United States.Last edited by el freako; April 19, 2005, 13:34.19th Century Liberal, 21st Century EuropeanComment
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