Marxism and contemporary society.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sikander
Re: the capacity for change in capitalist & communist systems

I assume you guys are talking about economic systems even though the conversation seems to have spilled over half of the time into political systems. Can someone give me a short definition of what constitutes a capitalist economic system and what constitutes a communist economic system (and preferably a real world example of each) so we can acertain whether we are in fact having a meaningful discussion (and not simply a ritual combat with symbols)?

We're talking about planning vs. free market.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Agriculture in fact never recovered from collectivisation in the 1930's.

Yes it did.

The information revolution, which was based on free exchange of ideas and decentralised networks, was the final nail in the coffin. Noone could control that.

Why do you say that?

Its no accident that the Chinese communists saw the writing on the wall and introduced market economy reforms. The Soviet party under Gorbachev tried to do similar through glasnost and perestroika but they lost control of the political process. The Chinese communists very nearly lost it too - until the 1989 Tiananmen massacre, which turned things around for them and changed the course of history.

The Chinese have a particular niche. That is using cheap labor to export to the US. The USSR didn't have it. They don't have it now, otherwise they would be using it.

[Agathon]

I do . The Soviet command economy started to fail in the 70's. Agriculture in fact never recovered from collectivisation in the 1930's. The information revolution, which was based on free exchange of ideas and decentralised networks, was the final nail in the coffin. Noone could control that.

It was actually growing in the early 1980s. Oil had more to do with it IMHO.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Agathon
Oil had more to do with it IMHO.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Ever heard of recessions?

Am I to believe you feel that no cyclical activity is to be permitted in order to fit the definition of long term growth?

[Az]

It was actually growing in the early 1980s. Oil had more to do with it IMHO.

Yep. Oil prices fell sharply, and the SU suddenly had way less cash to pay for the things it imported...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Am I to believe you feel that no cyclical activity is to be permitted in order to fit the definition of long term growth?

Why would you? Short term growth is always unsustainable. That's the nature of capitalism, and probably communism too in some cases. If you want my opinion long term growth is also unsustainable in the capitalist system, because there will be one last collapse.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Az

It was actually growing in the early 1980s. Oil had more to do with it IMHO.

Yep. Oil prices fell sharply, and the SU suddenly had way less cash to pay for the things it imported...

It was actually an oil crisis within the system. The USSR didn't have dollars to import oil.

[Dracon II]

It's domestic oil production peaked and began to decline sometime in the late 70's/80s, right?

[Kidlicious]

I'm not sure about the exact date, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 80s.

[Dracon II]

http://www.foia.cia.gov/ - In the search field type: er 77-10147

[Kidlicious]

Wow! Good find Dracon II.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Yes it did.

Really? Okay, care to back up that blithely ignorant statement? Agriculture recovered. Right. You make your points and then I'll just post the statements and memoirs of every Soviet leader from Kruschev through to Gorbachev. This is a matter of public record.

Agriculture was a black hole for the Soviet economy - the Soviet leaders spent a lot of time on it - they said so themselves. Noone came up with an answer until Gorbachev introduced market reforms, but too late to save him.

[Dracon II]

Don't have to add the "II". Apolyton wouldn't let me change my name back to Dracon for some reason...

Yeah, it's an interesting article. Kinda makes the "Reagan crippled the Soviet Union by sheer force of will and communication skills" thesis seem a little too Hegelian.

Stumbled across it whilst researching the Peak Oil thesis... which really shivered my spine and I guess is a completely different debate altogether.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If you want my opinion long term growth is also unsustainable in the capitalist system, because there will be one last collapse.

And you wonder why we call you Marxists a religious cult? Do you pray to the Messiah Marx for the "Great Collapse"?