Biggest Mistakes the Allies made iyo.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap

Didn't the Japanese Strike the Phillipinnes at almost the exact same time as Pearl Harbor? Besides, what would strikes vs Formosa have done? Gotten the bombers shot up in the air, then to come back to decimated bases?

Dont have the reference handy, but apparently there was some time between the opening at Pearl and the arrival of Japanese aircraft at PI. MacArthur dithered.

What it would have accomplished would have been at least SOME damage to the Taiwain airfields and facilities and any AC currently on the ground in Taiwan. That was the whole point of HAVING large numbers of US AC in the PI. At that point it was use em and lose em, or just lose em. No point in just losing em.

If you REALLY dont think they could have done anything, than the mistake was sending them to the PI at all (and they were moving AC into PI all through '41) Better to keep them back, and have more AC left to use after PI falls.

[lord of the mark]

from a post at Soc.history.what-if

"As for what MacArthur did do, he defintely did not put his B-17s in the air after getting the news of Pearl Harbor, After over half of his force was destroyed on the ground, he certainly did, but that was too late.
MacArthur did not manage the defense of the Phillipines well, and his mismanagement of aerial forces is particularly significant. Half the Japanese air strength in Taiwan could not operate south of Baguio, which
was 100 miles north of Clark field. The 86 Zeros which escorted the 108 bombers of the Navy's 11th. Air Fleet were only able to reach Manila by reducing engine revolutions: they had no fuel reserves left for dogfights.
If MacArthur had not let his forces be caught on the ground (and if he had sent them south, out of the range of the majority of Japanese aircraft) nine hours after recieving the news of Pearl Harbor, the Japanese would
have had a far more difficult time. Even assuming that MacArthur did not disperse forces south, a raid on the enemy airfields in Taiwan with his B-17s (which could have been launched not long after getting the news of
Pearl Harbor) would have made it far harder for the Japanese to try for air superiority over the Phillipines. MacArthur screwed up, which was, for the most part, the story of his career. Good PR and his victory at
Inchon have served to erase all the other failures, ****-ups, and insubordinations he was involved in. MacArthur deserved to get the treatment that was given to Kimmel, and it was only due to his PR (and
political connections to the Republican Party) that he avoided it. "

[Bosh]

MacArthur had plenty of warning that the Japanese were on the way because they were delayed by fog he and overruled General Brereton (who wanted to bomb Taiwan) thus resulting in the planes being destroyed on the ground, its much much much easier to destroy a plane if its not flying around and capable of fighting back.

And as far as Inchon goes, MacArthur was planning on sending the very FIRST American troops to arrive in Korea straight at Inchon, instead of trying to stabilize the Pusan Perimiter first. Thankfully he was overruled...

Idiot.

[Drake Tungsten]

Because they were essentially civilian, not military targets.

I'm pretty sure the largest urban area in Japan had some military targets in it.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


What Eisenhower grasped didn't matter. The partitioning of Germany was decided upon months before at Yalta by the politicians. In fact Germany was originally divided into 4 zones, one for each of the major allied powers. There wasn't a definite plan to re-assemble Germany either. The French, British, and Americans created the FRG only after the Soviets declared their zone to be a sovreign nation.

That's quite true - but the battlefield situation created an opportunity which was not seized. Instead US forces were diverted South to capture the non existent "Alpine redoubt".

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by GePap
Didn't the Japanese Strike the Phillipinnes at almost the exact same time as Pearl Harbor? Besides, what would strikes vs Formosa have done? Gotten the bombers shot up in the air, then to come back to decimated bases?

.

The Japanese couldn't hit the Phillipines at the same time as Pearl Harbor because of the time difference, it was 3 AM in the Phillipines when Pearl Harbor was being bombed. The Japanese had no experience with night bombing and didn't seem to be inclined towards acquiring any throughout the war. They did attempt to get their forces in the air at daybreak, but were hampered by fog. The bombing mission didn't get started until 8 AM. MacArthur ordered his fighters into the air at the crack of dawn, with the result that they began to run out of fuel as noon approached, which as fate would have it was the time that Japanese bombers struck the main airbases in the Phillipines.

MacArthur decided to not bomb the Japanese on December 8 because he had no reconnaissance of Japanese air and naval facilities on Taiwan. Without time to prepare for the mission odds were against his bombers finding a suitable target.

[Alexander's Horse]

Why are we all beating up on MacArthur? I thought he was a brilliant general, the best of the US, a stellar career. His "Pinch Hit" at Inchon was a stroke of genius. The way he rebuilt Japan as a peaceful parliamentary democracy with a strong market economy was masterful. He is revered in Asia.

He towered over the other US generals. I like the way he summed up Eisenhower, "the best clerk I ever had"

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Why are we all beating up on MacArthur? I thought he was a brilliant general, the best of the US, a stellar career. His "Pinch Hit" at Inchon was a stroke of genius. The way he rebuilt Japan as a peaceful parliamentary democracy with a strong market economy was masterful. He is revered in Asia.

He towered over the other US generals. I like the way he summed up Eisenhower, "the best clerk I ever had"

Well first off he sent tanks to disperse a peaceful demonstration of US WWI veterans killing and wounding wounding hundreds (resulting in the miscarriage of a pregnant veteran's wife), in blatant violation of law that disallows federal troups from acting in a law enforement capacity.

He also was part of the large-scale American ****-up that lead to the UN forces hitting the Yalu completely unprepared for the Chinese invertervention when the Chinese had repeatedly warned the Americans that they would intervene if the Americans hit the Yalu through a number of channels.

After this he called for nuking China (as in dropping up to 50 nuclear bombs all over the country), which would have resulted in a very nasty WW III. Which would have been somewhat unforturnate.

Also, he shouldn't have be given any real credit for the Incheon landing, since as I said before his original plan was to send the very first American troops that hit Korea at Inchon (the unprepared and generally crappy Japan occupation forces) instead of sending them to shore up the Pusan Perimeter, which would have resulted in the fall of Busan and the liquidation of the SKorean government in all likelyhood. The Inchon Landing only worked out because he was overruled and had to dely the Inchon Landing until there were sufficient troops to hold the Pusan Perimiter and do the landing.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Why are we all beating up on MacArthur? I thought he was a brilliant general, the best of the US, a stellar career. His "Pinch Hit" at Inchon was a stroke of genius. The way he rebuilt Japan as a peaceful parliamentary democracy with a strong market economy was masterful. He is revered in Asia.

I'm not beating up on him, I was answering a question about when the Japanese first bombed the Phillipines, and why MacArthur didn't bomb the airbases on Taiwan first.

[Alexander's Horse]

I was thinking more of Boshko....as you can see

[Admiral]

Also, as has been discussed, his defense of the Philippines was faulty.

More importantly, in '44, he pushed for and recieved significant resources to retake the Philippines. This was, relative to the general allied Pacific effort, unproductive. While the battle of Leyte Gulf did significantly hurt the remaining Japanese surface fleet, that fleet was basically immaterial, as the naval engagements around Okinawa show. (Even that late in the war, the Japanese still hadn't grasped the destructive power of naval aviation.) The allied campaign in the central pacific was adequite at advancing ground bases for bombers, and allowing the US to strike at the Home Islands themselves. Basically, the recapture of the Philippines was a PR move, to allow MacAurthur to return as he said he was, and to replace the image of his ignominious retreat with that of his triumphal return.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by GePap
Also, the USSR was NOT planning to invade Germany. I don't know where people get this.

Indeed, my understanding is that the Russian Army was rendered almost useless as a result of Stalin's purges of the general staff.

I even heard a theory that Hilter induced those purges by leaking disinformation that Russia's generals were planning a coup. This disinformation had the expected reaction by the paranoid Stalin.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by GePap
Didn't the Japanese Strike the Phillipinnes at almost the exact same time as Pearl Harbor? Besides, what would strikes vs Formosa have done? Gotten the bombers shot up in the air, then to come back to decimated bases?

On Berlin- the Germans would have gladly surrendered to the western allies, but politically it would have been inpractical, and in the end only accerbated tensions between the western allies and the USSR immidiately. Given that the Soviets had fought the vast bulk of the land war vs. the Nazi's, they saw Berlin as their prize and their alone- who knows how they might have reacted had tyhe western allies sought to deny them that prize.

Also, the USSR was NOT planning to invade Germany. I don't know where people get this.

About 9 Dec their time or about 24 to 36 hours after P.H. our time.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Admiral
Also, as has been discussed, his defense of the Philippines was faulty.

More importantly, in '44, he pushed for and recieved significant resources to retake the Philippines. This was, relative to the general allied Pacific effort, unproductive. While the battle of Leyte Gulf did significantly hurt the remaining Japanese surface fleet, that fleet was basically immaterial, as the naval engagements around Okinawa show. (Even that late in the war, the Japanese still hadn't grasped the destructive power of naval aviation.) The allied campaign in the central pacific was adequite at advancing ground bases for bombers, and allowing the US to strike at the Home Islands themselves. Basically, the recapture of the Philippines was a PR move, to allow MacAurthur to return as he said he was, and to replace the image of his ignominious retreat with that of his triumphal return.

This is all hidnsight driven. If you have a look at a map of East Asia the strategic significance of the Philippines becomes very clear. By taking it Japan's forces in SEA were cut off from mainland Japan, as were the sea lanes for strategic resources like oil and rubber. Now, you can say the Navy and air force could have achieved this without the Philippines and there is some truth in that too but this was not known at the time. Thats what I mean by hindsight.

[Ted Striker]

There is also the morale factor consider, since MacArthur and his crew got whooped there the first time, taking it back was a big deal.

Sorta like the opposite of what happened at Stalingrad for the Nazis except not as big of a scale.