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math (higher)...what is it good for? Absolutely nothing...huh! Say it again. Math!

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  • #46
    Practical applications of higher math - Calculus 3 was my first grade non-A in college. I know my limitations.

    1) Modern Composties and their use in aviation - without higher math much of the modeling that permits their use, and the failure parameters involved, simply would not be possible. Composites are critical to today's modern aircraft.

    2) F16 and post aircraft are dynamically unstable - again higher maths required to write the control routines, or at least develop them, in a useful way that let's you fly combat maneuvers.

    3) Modern shaped charged explosives. The vastly increased lethality of shaped charges is directly attributalbe to higher math, and computers to run them on.

    4) Protein folding - we are only beginning to understand it. Where higher math, programming, and supercomputing meet with a vengeance. If you don't think protein folding is important - Alzheimers is essentially a disease of protein folding. Nuff said.

    5) Modern reactors. The Japanes have some nice breeder reactors. Successfully arranging the core for optimal yields of fissionables requires - you guessed it - higher maths.

    6) Small light thermonuclear warheads. Higher math. Period. Can anybody say MIRV?

    7) Modern urban traffic control. Some groundbreaking work is being done in that area, with some fascinating theoretical work leading the way. The predictive tools are - bingo, higher math.

    Mathematics is one way to describe the universe, and as you deal with increasingly complex systems, math is the only way to describe it. You can do science without math - but the cutting edge today often has it as a prerequisite.
    The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
    And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
    Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
    Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

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    • #47
      Only 4 and 7 (and possibly 1) are applications of the so-called "higher math" we're discussing...
      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
      Stadtluft Macht Frei
      Killing it is the new killing it
      Ultima Ratio Regum

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by KrazyHorse
        what higher math?

        calculus and differential equations don't count

        everybody knows those
        We use differential equations and I assure you tons of people haven't a clue about them.
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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        • #49
          And I assure you that wasn't the point of this thread
          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
          Stadtluft Macht Frei
          Killing it is the new killing it
          Ultima Ratio Regum

          Comment


          • #50
            Krazyhorse, I'm talking math that goes beyond Differential Equations, as per TCO's post. There is ALOT of modern science that requires math past that level. Then there is the math that the astronomers use - I picked up a book for $1 at a surplus book sale, thinking that since it was about modern astronomy I would get some generalized review on current theory - it was actually about a symposium on various mathematical theories being dealt with. I couldn't even read all the equations. Now I'll grant you that some of that math is not integral to modern science, but there is a world between that and DiffE that shapes virtually everything we do today.
            The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
            And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
            Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
            Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

            Comment


            • #51
              I'm sorry to tell you this, but you don't know what you're talking about.

              Most of the astro people I know don't know anything beyond vector calculus and differential equations

              Could you please tell me what other branches of mathematics you think are being used to solve those problems?
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • #52
                Like what sort of math do you think they have to do to arrange cores in nuclear reactors?
                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                Killing it is the new killing it
                Ultima Ratio Regum

                Comment


                • #53
                  I think religious people should be sent to remedial math class. Human-brain=veggie. Pull the plug already!
                  Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Lul Thyme
                    Hum I enjoy many areas of mathematics, but probably mostly finite ones (finite algebras, combinatorics etc...).

                    I am not sure about the Rolling Stones, I know I use to think I knew almost all math in High School, when now, after years of pure math training, I think I know less and less respectively to what there is to know, and I learn what a huge and impressive building of knowledge mathematicians have constructed over the years.

                    What is worth learning and what is useful are two completly different questions.

                    Thirst for knowledge in the human cannot be always be linked to usefullness, in mathematics or otherwise...


                    If you want to know what "higher" mathematics is useful for...

                    Cryptography and coding is 100% based on it, computer science at its root, almost all of physics...
                    It really depends what you consider "higher" mathematics, I have not included basic linear algebra and calculus in the above applications (if you do, you can add all of science, art, and almost all human construction of the minds basically)

                    I want to stress, that most mathematicians do not really think about applications of their personnal research.
                    They do it because they like it, and they feel what they are doing is like a brick in the big building.
                    Now it just happens that the building as a whole underlies basically all scientific research, but mathematicians as individuals do not really spend much time looking for "real world" applications to their research, except maybe at grant time.
                    1. Yes, I know that math can be enjoyable to learn regardless of application. Also that people who work in it often do so regardless of it's benefits. However, it DOES have benefits. And even if you pursue it for pure reasons, the benefits are interesting to me. (And society in general). Think of it as a tangential benefit.

                    2. Agreed math up to diffeq's is not included in what I mean by high math. Really what I mean is "math that I haven't had".

                    3. I guess, there is a little more to say math is useful than to talk about it underlying a science like crystalography. That is a form of use. But I differentiate that from the very common "tool in a toolbox" use of calculus or algebra.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Lul Thyme
                      Hum I enjoy many areas of mathematics, but probably mostly finite ones (finite algebras, combinatorics etc...).


                      If you want to much time looking for "real world" applications to their research, except maybe at grant time.
                      1. What is finite math (simple terms)?

                      2. I guess I'm interested in some of that grant time discussion. Save the obvious lies just to get money. But to discuss, what the stuff is good for interests me. Oh...and there is a lot of higher math that is not new math to the world.

                      3. OR, travelling salesman, etc. interests me.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KrazyHorse
                        Like what sort of math do you think they have to do to arrange cores in nuclear reactors?
                        My impression (based on the math and the designs done in the 50s, 60s) is that some methods for approximations are needed. Some linear programming. I had the impression that they whipped out some stuff that I don't know.

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                        • #57
                          I remember one particular aspect of the core or of thermal coefficient of the moderator which depended on some aspect of transport theory (whatever that means) and got the impression that we didn't have the math for it.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Oerdin
                            I think religious people should be sent to remedial math class. Human-brain=veggie. Pull the plug already!
                            It should be the person's choice. Just because you feel that, others may not. My GM just died and they would not put in a feeding tube. She had only had a stroke. There was no definite proof that she was brain dead, since she was just not waking up. All my mom's arguments about not intervening were based on what she wanted for herself and on not wanting to bother with my GM in a home. My unlce wanted her around because he liked talking to her. BUT NOONE asked what she would want.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by TCO


                              My impression (based on the math and the designs done in the 50s, 60s) is that some methods for approximations are needed. Some linear programming. I had the impression that they whipped out some stuff that I don't know.
                              Some simple stuff then. Linear algebra and differential calculus/taylor/fourier ****.
                              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                              Stadtluft Macht Frei
                              Killing it is the new killing it
                              Ultima Ratio Regum

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Transport is not bad. Some linearised non-eq stat mech does it. Certainly not "higher math"...
                                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                                Killing it is the new killing it
                                Ultima Ratio Regum

                                Comment

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