CanPol: Gomery and a Looming Federal Election

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by notyoueither
The Liberals have to be ousted.

How? If we oust them now, they'll just get back in next spring when Harper's government collapses.

That would be the next bridge, wouldn't it?

Right now we are in front of this bridge.

Which actually would be very good for the NDP because both the Liberals and Conservatives will be discredited. So, I think that Harper will get his motion of no confidence through and a summer election to celebrate it.

Well, if it would be good for the NDP, perhaps NDP supporters should do it.

The truth is that without Bloc Quebec in the government equation (they don't want it even if ROC got over it and recognised that they are the legitimate representatives of their ridings) Parliament is hamstrung.

FYI: ROC = Rest of Canada

And?

My point is that the Bloc in a coalition would not be viewed well by many people in the ROC. That's a shame, because without 50 or 60 seats from Quebec, government making becomes very difficult.

Harper and Layton better grow up real fast and realise that there are bigger things at stake here than the flavour of the next budget, or who gets to marry who.

Not really. The law is catching up to those who have broken it. The Gomery Inquiry seems to be working.

As for bigger things, Harper wants to dismantle Canada by devolving powers to the provinces and to hobble the federal government by instituting an elected Senate. The Liberals would have to steal very hard to top that when it comes to damaging the country.

The problems we are about to face (IMO) if the Liberals are returned far outweigh the traditional petty bickering that Tories and Socialists enjoy engaging in. It's time to put the good of the nation ahead of traditional name calling and demonisation.

I think the NDP and Tories should give some serious thought to cooperating with each other and with the Bloc to enable a government to last 2 to 3 years

Incidently, how is listening to the provinces in appointing senators going to damage the country?

As for dismantling Canada, take a look at what is happening in Quebec already. The strong centralising federalism of PET is deader than a door knob. Hell, just governing the country is a major challenge now. The sooner Ottawa adapts to the reality that we are 4 or 5 large regions and not one humungous homogeneity, the better for our future (IMO).

[St Leo]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Add to that the damage to the credibility of federalism that would be dealt by returning the thieves to power when the theft has been laid bare, and I don't know what would happen.

Perhaps MacKay should not have betrayed his party. Red Tories would be riding high right now.

However, I doubt the public discourse would be pretty.

For National Post values of public discourse, yes.

I'd be a lot more worried about Quebec, but some of the likely suspects are already mentioning seperatism in Alberta should the Libs get back in under these circumstances.

The Albertan Alliance could well make gains in the provincial elections. Don't know what would happen federally. Stronach would be a good uniter, but it would have to be a different Big Tent.

Do people in Ontario and the Maritimes realise it?

Not really. An independent Alberta wouldn't happen overnight either. We aren't talking about armed rebellion here.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, if it would be good for the NDP, perhaps NDP supporters should do it.

How about we pass a budget first? There's no theft in the Liberals' budget, and it spends less than what the Conservatives promised in the last election.

Sometimes, it's better to let a drunk driver to pull over on the side of the road instead of shooting out their tires with a machine gun.

The problems we are about to face (IMO) if the Liberals are returned far outweigh the traditional petty bickering that Tories and Socialists enjoy engaging in. It's time to put the good of the nation ahead of traditional name calling and demonisation.

I think the NDP and Tories should give some serious thought to cooperating with each other and with the Bloc to enable a government to last 2 to 3 years.

I understand what you are saying. However, Harper has not been forthcoming with demonstrations of goodwill. The rhetoric that has been employed by the Conservatives about the NDP and the Liberals co-operating the way parties are supposed to co-operate in a minority situation has been very dishonourable.

Political discourse does not benefit from hyperbole -- "fiscally irresponsible budget", "most despicable something in parliament's history" -- and name-calling -- "whores". Ahem.

Recall the recent French election, in which they re-elected a crook (Chirac) in order to prevent a politically unpalatable character (Lepen) making it in.

Incidently, how is listening to the provinces in appointing senators going to damage the country?

Currently, the Senate is a non-entity. The NDP proposes abolishing it which is a zero-impact action. The Conservatives want it to use its veto powers aggressively, thus rendering government more ineffectual.

The sooner Ottawa adapts to the reality that we are 4 or 5 large regions and not one humungous homogeneity, the better for our future (IMO).

If we are on our way to hell, I want someone who will try to reverse the trend instead of someone who's screaming "Faster! Faster!"

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by notyoueither
Add to that the damage to the credibility of federalism that would be dealt by returning the thieves to power when the theft has been laid bare, and I don't know what would happen.

Perhaps MacKay should not have betrayed his party. Red Tories would be riding high right now.

The country is going to have to deal with what is, not what you wish had been.

However, I doubt the public discourse would be pretty.

For National Post values of public discourse, yes.

What? The NaPo has squat to do with it. I'm talking about the locals, many of whom are already bouncing off the walls. Ezra Levant, Dave Rutherford, etc.

Return the Liberals and the volume of those people will increase, as will those prepared to listen to them seriously.

Forget seperatism, it won't do federalism any good in these parts, in any way. Remember those 'firewalls'? That would be opting out of federal programs.

At best you end up with a sullen resentment that will be anything but cooperative in national issues. At worst, the Republic of Alberta.

I'd be a lot more worried about Quebec, but some of the likely suspects are already mentioning seperatism in Alberta should the Libs get back in under these circumstances.

The Albertan Alliance could well make gains in the provincial elections. Don't know what would happen federally. Stronach would be a good uniter, but it would have to be a different Big Tent.

Do people in Ontario and the Maritimes realise it?

Not really. An independent Alberta wouldn't happen overnight either. We aren't talking about armed rebellion here.

How are you so confident of what is or isn't possible in a place you know so little about?

I live here, and I'm very concerned about what the future may hold. Alberta doesn't migrate in a leisurely fashion politically. It stampedes.

It would take a lot for the fringes to gain the attention of the mainstream, but once they did the situation could be extremely volatile.

I've said it before, if there is ever a vote on staying or leaving held here, that would likely be the only one. If the issue ever became that important that it were put to the test, then the outcome might very well be a foregone conclusion.

And then there is Quebec. Alberta should not be the chief concern.

[St Leo]

Ezra Levant | Ontario must lie back and think of Canada

Rebuttal: Ian Welsh | Election Prediction

[Agathon]

Add to that the damage to the credibility of federalism that would be dealt by returning the thieves to power when the theft has been laid bare, and I don't know what would happen.

I don't think there would be any damage. In fact it would be good for Canada because the Conservatives would finally realize that the Reform/Alliance platform is a permanent loser and that it's time to go back to the PC platform.

Jesus: I'm a non-Canadian communist and even I can see that this would solve the problem.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, if it would be good for the NDP, perhaps NDP supporters should do it.

How about we pass a budget first? There's no theft in the Liberals' budget, and it spends less than what the Conservatives promised in the last election.

Sometimes, it's better to let a drunk driver to pull over on the side of the road instead of shooting out their tires with a machine gun.

Why not have an election and then have a budget written and passed by parties that aren't in the midst of what will go down as one of the biggest scandals in Canadian history?

Sometimes it's better to have a cop pull the drunk over and end his journey.

While Martin is passing that budget, his cabinet is also at the top of the regulatory and prosecutorial totem poles that could actually do something about the mess that the Liberal Party of Canada seems to be.

The problems we are about to face (IMO) if the Liberals are returned far outweigh the traditional petty bickering that Tories and Socialists enjoy engaging in. It's time to put the good of the nation ahead of traditional name calling and demonisation.

I think the NDP and Tories should give some serious thought to cooperating with each other and with the Bloc to enable a government to last 2 to 3 years.

I understand what you are saying. However, Harper has not been forthcoming with demonstrations of goodwill. The rhetoric that has been employed by the Conservatives about the NDP and the Liberals co-operating the way parties are supposed to co-operate in a minority situation has been very dishonourable.

Political discourse does not benefit from hyperbole -- "fiscally irresponsible budget", "most despicable something in parliament's history" -- and name-calling -- "whores". Ahem.

Recall the recent French election, in which they re-elected a crook (Chirac) in order to prevent a politically unpalatable character (Lepen) making it in.

And it doesn't benefit from 'in bed with seperatists', 'Klu Klux Klan' comments, or pronouncements that the Tories are likely to pillage medicare.

Also recall that France doesn't have a province on the brink of seperation and another were there is a current of resentment that could easily flair that way.

Incidently, how is listening to the provinces in appointing senators going to damage the country?

Currently, the Senate is a non-entity. The NDP proposes abolishing it which is a zero-impact action. The Conservatives want it to use its veto powers aggressively, thus rendering government more ineffectual.

Zero impact? You call a constitutional amendment in this country 'zero impact'? You have curious ideas of 'zero impact'.

I'm curious to know how the Tories think that the senators from Ontario, Quebec, and points east are assured of being on their side to veto other parties in government.

Appointing elected senators is a bone to their base in an important region to them. That is all.

However, I can well imagine that sole control of the senate by parties that Ontario votes for would be a serious concern in maintaining the dictatorship for some people from Ontario. /regional rant

The sooner Ottawa adapts to the reality that we are 4 or 5 large regions and not one humungous homogeneity, the better for our future (IMO).

If we are on our way to hell, I want someone who will try to reverse the trend instead of someone who's screaming "Faster! Faster!"

Too late, PET tipped the cart over the brink and we have been on the downhill course ever since.

The trick is to direct the outcome and preserve the patient. The mistake would be to push back too hard and kill it.

[St Leo]

26/04/2005
Jack Layton's Statement on Agreement in Principle for Budget 2005-06

Good afternoon,

When Canadians vote NDP, they expect us to work to get something done for people and the environment.

They don’t send us here to play games. They send us here to work for their families and get as much done as we can for their families, their communities and our environment – within balanced budgets.

For almost a year, the NDP has worked to get things done. We’ve some victories like on missile defense. But we were unsatisfied. Because we know that minority parliaments can work for people – the NDP created medicare and pensions in them. And we were serious about wanting to get something done for people and the environment.

As I said on Thursday, I think there’s a crisis of faith in politics today. Too many people think parties work for themselves, not people. Because for too long, people have voted to make life better for their families…and then waited. Waited for 12 long years for action.

As I also said on Thursday, the NDP’s in no rush to judge on the scandal but we are in a rush to get something done for people and the environment.

There should be an election about Liberal corruption and broken promises and there will be. I believe we have an obligation to get as much done as we can in the short time ahead – which means job one is getting a better, balanced budget passed. Because it’s long past time politics was about people.

It appears likely that we will have an agreement in principle reached with the government. Families will pay less for their kids’ education. Workers will get better training. We’ll reduce pollution. Build affordable housing. Protect pensions – and have a place in the world that makes us proud.

This likely agreement in principle also gives real hope that the child care money and first installment of the gas tax can start to flow back to communities. It also lets the investment in the Kyoto plan move ahead. The Liberal plan doesn’t keep our Kyoto promise. It has major flaws. But it is vital we move ahead and ensure even the most basic first steps are protected…from year one to year five.

I promised to listen to Canadians and I have. What they’ve told me is they’ve waited so long for a government to act that they don’t believe politics can be about them. I believe it should be about them. Which is why the NDP’s going to try and get something done – now.

I promised Canadians I’d work for a better balanced budget that invests in people and the environment. Because our economy needs an educated and trained workforce. Our economy needs to be greener. Our economy relies on economic engines in cities – and the social services families depend on.

This budget isn’t perfect. But it’s better. And it’s balanced, and it includes tax reductions for small business. But it also invests in people and our environment. We came to work and we did. Thank you.

I am not exactly sure why Harper is in such a mad rush. Polls show the majority of Canadians wanting the Gomery Inquiry to finish (~November) before an election is called. Even if he'd prefer an early election, there's plenty of time to have one in the summer with a simple Non Confidence motion.

The raving over the budget is nuts, as Canada would be immensely hurt if it didn't pass because it contains provisions for five years ahead. Without it, we'd end up drifting aimlessly, and failures of the Chretien years -- lack of affordable housing, etc. -- would be perpetuated.

[notyoueither]

You think the provisions of this budget are gonna last five years in this spagetti Parliament?

I have a bridge you might be interested in.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by St Leo
Ezra Levant | Ontario must lie back and think of Canada

Rebuttal: Ian Welsh | Election Prediction

And you think that returning thieves to power would be better how?

No matter how this next parliament gets cut, it is going to be a minority govt.

Your rebuttal's author seems to be clinging to predjudices for dear life to perpetuate the comfort zone of voting Liberal for the last 12 years.

[embalmer42]

Originally posted by notyoueither


And you think that returning thieves to power would be better how?

No matter how this next parliament gets cut, it is going to be a minority govt.

Your rebuttal's author seems to be clinging to predjudices for dear life to perpetuate the comfort zone of voting Liberal for the last 12 years.

As you so recently advised Ben, NYE, I wouldn't be counting my chickens before they hatched. The way the polls are going and how there seems to be a base support of at least 25% + who will apparently support the Liberal party no matter what (justifying it by saying sure, their party may be corrupt but the Tory party of twelve years ago was far worse....as if that makes any logical sense), I would not be surprised to see the Liberals eek out a majority, whenever the election comes.

I wonder if these people who say that the election should be held off until Gomery delivers his report would still be saying that if it was a Conservative government under investigation? How many of them would be calling for Harper's head on a platter now , not content to wait eight or ten months for an election?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by embalmer42
As you so recently advised Ben, NYE, I wouldn't be counting my chickens before they hatched. The way the polls are going and how there seems to be a base support of at least 25% + who will apparently support the Liberal party no matter what (justifying it by saying sure, their party may be corrupt but the Tory party of twelve years ago was far worse....as if that makes any logical sense), I would not be surprised to see the Liberals eek out a majority, whenever the election comes.

I wonder if these people who say that the election should be held off until Gomery delivers his report would still be saying that if it was a Conservative government under investigation? How many of them would be calling for Harper's head on a platter now , not content to wait eight or ten months for an election?

I agree, but I am not counting any chickens (although I don't think any majority is likely for a while). The very real prospect of the Liberals continuing in power scares the **** out of me, because I think it would have grave consequences for the country.

It wouldn't take seperatism for the effects to be felt. Look at the Canbuck sink. The international community is losing faith in the current GofC and they are saying so through capital flight. I wonder what they'd do when the Canadian electorate were primitive enough to return the Liberals to power. Bring on the Peso! Oley!

[embalmer42]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Bring on the Peso! Oley!