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CanPol: Gomery and a Looming Federal Election

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  • The Constitution says that the SCoC is the highest court of the land.

    The SCoC, along with courts in seven of ten provinces, say that prohibiting gay marriage is unconstitutional.

    You could have 205 MPs say gay marriage is against the New Law, or you could have 205 million Canadians say the same thing (if you waited a while for there to be that many Canadians) but the Court backed by the Constitution still says otherwise, and it is trump. Call it the ace of spades and spades are bid, if you will.

    The only thing you could do, democratically, legally, and with any hope of surviving a single government, is pass an amendment where seven of ten provinces representing 50%+ of the population agree that marriage is restricted to man and woman. Good luck with that.

    Or, you could hold your breath for a very long time and hope that social reactionaries will hold majority power for long enough to replace most of the court. I bet you go beyond turning blue waiting for that to happen. I doubt Harper could live long enough to appoint a majority of jurists who would reverse course, even if he lived to 110 as sitting PM. Remember, people who think as I do would be among the candidates the Tories would choose from.

    Or, you could hope that Harper would be stupid enough to use the notwithstanding clause. That would last for a few years until it needed to be renewed or it lapses. In the meantime the Conservatives would be wiped out in most every major urban centre in the country and their replacements would most likely repeal any bill that is so offensive rather than let it run its course to lapsing.

    Realism is a good thing, Ben. One should realise when they are licked. Move on to other issues that actually matter.
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    • Originally posted by KrazyHorse
      Because lower courts in 7 provinces have already made the determination that it is unconstitutional to restrict marriage to heterosexual couples. The SCoC declined to rule on the issue, but it is extremely likely that if forced to rule by the federal government appealing the lower court decisions that they would not reverse the lower courts. Thus, any act restricting marriage to heterosexual couples passed at the federal level would be deemed unconstitutional, and there would be precisely two options: invoking the notwithstanding clause and a constitutional amendment.
      They did indicate thet the fed was indicating acceptance by not appealing.

      They also rejected tradition as an argument.

      They said everything but 'if you want a bloody nose, put the question before us in a case.'
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      • The SCoC already said all that should need being said on the issue, in 1995 when they ruled that 'sexual orientation' was essentially part of Section 15 of the Charter or Rights and Freedoms.

        That opened the door to the rulings in the seven of ten provinces.
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        • The only democratic result that would be helpful for your cause would be a constitutional amendment.


          Very true and very disheartening...
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          • You find it disheartening that we are ruled by law and not mobs?
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            • No, I find it disheartening that democracy has been so reduced that the people of a free country have no real say as regards the fate of one of society's most important institutions.
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              • Oh right. People of the South most likely said the same thing, and it wasn't even a courts doing in the undoing. Slavery was a pretty important institution for their society.

                Guess what? It was wrong to set society up so that certain people benefitted and certain people suffered based on a fundamental nature of being.

                That's one of the reasons why we have courts. To protect minorities from majorities who feel tyrannical with no good reason other than it's tradition to treat certain people worse than others.
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                • Oh right. People of the South most likely said the same thing, and it wasn't even a courts doing in the undoing.


                  If you apply this to the civil rights movement, it brings up a valuable point. The civil rights movement didn't rely solely on judicial intervention. It was a democratic process, which is probably why it was so successful.

                  Look at it another way. Civil rights. Roe v. Wade. Which one was a democratic decision? Which one wasn't? Which decision is accepted by nearly all the people in America today? And which one is still one of the major sources of bile and division in America?

                  I really don't know why seemingly reasonable people lost their faith in democracy, but I sure don't like it...
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                  • I don't mind some limits on mob rule in turbulent times on emotional issues. I would not favour requiring Socrates to drink the hemlock in this day and age, either.
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                    • Originally posted by notyoueither


                      They did indicate thet the fed was indicating acceptance by not appealing.

                      They also rejected tradition as an argument.

                      They said everything but 'if you want a bloody nose, put the question before us in a case.'
                      I know. Just keeping the facts straight.
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                      • Incidently, your civil rights movement got kicked off in the courts. It was the only place the wronged could get a hearing.
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                        • Originally posted by KrazyHorse


                          I know. Just keeping the facts straight.
                          And the important fact is the 1995 ruling.
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                          • Incidently, your civil rights movement got kicked off in the courts. It was the only place the wronged could get a hearing.


                            It didn't end there, though, which is precisely my point. People accept decisions that are ultimately decided in a democratic fashion. They aren't so willing to accept the dictates of judicial fiat.
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                            • You can make an argument that protection against discrimination is not quite on point. Not a good argument, but...
                              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                              Stadtluft Macht Frei
                              Killing it is the new killing it
                              Ultima Ratio Regum

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                              • Originally posted by KrazyHorse
                                You can make an argument that protection against discrimination is not quite on point. Not a good argument, but...
                                70 year old people are getting married for tax and estate benefit.

                                How is that not discriminatory if discrimination based on sexual orientation is prohibited under Section 15, which the SCoC says it is?

                                /edited for clarity
                                Last edited by notyoueither; April 19, 2005, 01:46.
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