Schiavo Thread Part the Third

[notyoueither]

Judges are supposed to hear representations from the people affected.

The only thing clear in this case is that neither the husband nor the parents can be counted on to accurately represent the person most affected.

[Capt Dizle]

Yeah, the Martinez law seems wacky. Give legal counsel to someone with whom you can not communicate for the purpose of affording them the same protections under law that accrue to those facing a death sentence in a criminal case.

That can't work, it would require a presumption of her will that cannot be known. She doesn't need an advocate, she needs a guardian to act in her best interest and a court to oversee it. She had that.

There doesn't seem to be a basis for a due process claim here to me.

[GePap]

Originally posted by notyoueither


The point is getting to the bottom of the patient's wishes when there is a dispute.

And that was the point of the civil case! The point brough up was that Terry didn;t have her own council, which would have been useless.

While JT wrote a very good piece on where sensitivity to the issue is coming from, the real reason this is important is in deciding what happens when there is a dispute.

I am not convinced that Ned has it wrong.

If there is a dispute, the state must assure itself that the patient's interests are looked after before the state uses its power to intervene to terminate support for a life. I am not convinced that a judge has the time to invest into such a question, nor should he or she. Furthermore, it is not the function of a judge to be an advocate.

THE STATE DID NOT INTERVENE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A civil court judge is NOT an agent of the state- they are there to decide a dispute between 2 private parties.

As for you saying a judge oes not have the time- if someone who's role in society is to mediate disputes and render a judgement does not have the time, WHO THE HELL DOES?



And the judge was NOT an advocate-people presented evidence to the judge, the judge made a decision and a ruling. That is what judges do in civil cases.

[GePap]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Judges are supposed to hear representations from the people affected.

The only thing clear in this case is that neither the husband nor the parents can be counted on to accurately represent the person most affected.

And unfortunately the person most affected has 0 way of stating their wishes or in fact doing anything else- heck, she could not even pay her bills, and if the bills stopped being paid, the plug would be pulled anyways.

Thus, providing her with council would be meaningless as the councellor would not have a clue as to what the wish of the patient actually was, and thus would invariably have to take one of the two posisitons, so what is the point? Just let the two sets of lawyers on each side argue it.

Is this too hard to grasp, cause its like the third time someone says it in this debate.

[TCO]

boring, guys...

[notyoueither]

And Ned's point is that SHE was not represented by anyone who could have cared a fig to instruct HER OWN lawyer to argue strenuously that she live.

Step back and consider...

Which neutral party spent more than half an hour with the patient? Which officer of the court went around and talked to everyone who knew her? Did the judge even speak to the nurses?

Now tell me, was the 'defendant' represented before the sentence of death was handed down?

[notyoueither]

And keep in mind, what should happen in future?

There are a **** load more of these cases coming.

THAT is what we should be concerned with.

[Capt Dizle]

One basic thing here is that unlike a death penalty case, where the state is seeking to punish by death for crime, in this case the state is trying to simply determine what Terri wanted and carry it out. I don't really see that the wishes of the husband or family matter one jot.

[Capt Dizle]

Now, if Terri is allowed to die physically and later, it can be proven that her husband lied, I think he should be tried for murder.

But if that could be proved surely it would have come out in 15 years?

Or maybe not. Make a nice episode for "Cold Case".

[GePap]

Originally posted by notyoueither
And Ned's point is that SHE was not represented by anyone who could have cared a fig to instruct HER OWN lawyer to argue strenuously that she live.

what? The point of council is to give their client the best advice they can about the law and to represent thier client's interests the best they can. If her interest was to die, why would any lawyer claiming to be her lawyer fight to keep her alive? They woulkd be violating thier client's interests.

Step back and consider...

Which neutral party spent more than half an hour with the patient? Which officer of the court went around and talked to everyone who knew her? Did the judge even speak to the nurses?

The court appointed guardian who stayed with her for hours on end, far longer than any nurse com,ing in and out would. As for speaking to people who Knew her, what the hell would they know of her medical state?

And the judge would not need to speak to the nurses, since he had the advice of people who spent far more time examining her throughly than any nurse would.

Where have you been getting your information??

Now tell me, was the 'defendant' represented before the sentence of death was handed down?

For the umpteeth time:

SHE COULD NOT BE REPRESENTED UNTIL A FINDING OF HER WISHES WAS MADE BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE MIGHT BE TO VIOLATE HER WISHES, WHICH IS WHAT A LAWYER IS NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

Christ...

[GePap]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
Now, if Terri is allowed to die physically and later, it can be proven that her husband lied, I think he should be tried for murder.

But if that could be proved surely it would have come out in 15 years?

Or maybe not. Make a nice episode for "Cold Case".

The parents might very well sue the husband for unlawful death, the way this ugly case is going.

[Dis]

what I don't understand is why this is even an argument.

All you have to do is watch the videos. Even the one's where her eyes follow the balloon are pathetic. Even the worst mentally disabled person can feed themselves.

Most of you right to lifers probably haven't heard the audio of those videos. That's the most disturbing part. You can tell her brain is fried. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

She does not have enough neurons to work with. So it's not like her brain can rewire itself.

I'm tempted to sneak into that hospital and put her out of her misery with my 9mm. But the doctors say she's not really in misery. I'm just tired of this story going on so long.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Dissident
what I don't understand is why this is even an argument.

All you have to do is watch the videos. Even the one's where her eyes follow the balloon are pathetic. Even the worst mentally disabled person can feed themselves.

Most of you right to lifers probably haven't heard the audio of those videos. That's the most disturbing part. You can tell her brain is fried. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

She does not have enough neurons to work with. So it's not like her brain can rewire itself.

I'm tempted to sneak into that hospital and put her out of her misery with my 9mm. But the doctors say she's not really in misery. I'm just tired of this story going on so long.

You could just use your 9mm to put yourself out of your misery then. Wait, don't do that. I was joking.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap
SHE COULD NOT BE REPRESENTED UNTIL A FINDING OF HER WISHES WAS MADE BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE MIGHT BE TO VIOLATE HER WISHES, WHICH IS WHAT A LAWYER IS NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

Christ...

And a rolleyes back at you...

SHE SHOULD BE REPRESENTED BY A LAWYER ADVISED BY THE COURT APPOINTED GUARDIAN!

Are you stiff? Do you not get it?

SHE WAS NOT REPRESENTED BY A LAWYER BEFORE IT WAS DECIDED SHE SHOULD DIE!

[Dis]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle


You could just use your 9mm to put yourself out of your misery then. Wait, don't do that. I was joking.

I'm not in any misery. But rest assured, if I am, then I will kill myself (if I 'm able).