Huge protest against plans to sell Europe to highest bidder

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
didn't even read the second page of this thread and I already know this is from Spiffor. Why? Take a guess

Because it is the third or second time I use this argument when you accuse me of being the man, and you have never debunked it yet?

[VetLegion]

Finland is a drain on European economy and it also opresses Parisians

[Pekka]

The real issue I have with this .. issue is that you seem to think the power in EU is the percentage of presentation in forms of MEPs. That's laughable, and yet you keep hanging on to it, and even claiming it's unfair?

I mean, in the perfect world it would be like that, but in the real world, there are millions of other, more important factors that play into it.

This is a very socialistic way of keeping people in a leash. You know, to give them a medal for doing something for the society that it seems to be worth rewarding, worth a piece of medal. It's nothing but chewbacca defence and you should know better. You start from the premise, that all member states are equal. And that's where it starts all wrong, and you refuse to see it, because well there's the representation, right? Like I said, socialistic way to keep people on a leash.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Finland is a drain on European economy and it also opresses Parisians

Where did anyone say that?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Where did anyone say that?

I DID since you obviously don't dare.

Appeasing Finns

Fighting Finnish opression

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Pekka
The real issue I have with this .. issue is that you seem to think the power in EU is the percentage of presentation in forms of MEPs. That's laughable, and yet you keep hanging on to it, and even claiming it's unfair?

I mean, in the perfect world it would be like that, but in the real world, there are millions of other, more important factors that play into it.

This is a very socialistic way of keeping people in a leash. You know, to give them a medal for doing something for the society that it seems to be worth rewarding, worth a piece of medal. It's nothing but chewbacca defence and you should know better. You start from the premise, that all member states are equal. And that's where it starts all wrong, and you refuse to see it, because well there's the representation, right? Like I said, socialistic way to keep people on a leash.

Educate yourself pekka, member states need to be equal. Else the EU would be a modern colonial power, with all the problems the old colonial powers had.
We don't want to repeat history, we want to improve on it.

[Pekka]

What are you talking about? I didn't say states shouldn't be equal. I said that they aren't, and that's my problem. Next time you want to accuse people of not being educated enough for your taste, please start with someone else.

[VetLegion]

Yep, Finland is overrepresented.

What will EU do about it?

I mean, we can't have that. It's unfair.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
The real issue I have with this .. issue is that you seem to think the power in EU is the percentage of presentation in forms of MEPs. That's laughable, and yet you keep hanging on to it, and even claiming it's unfair?

It seems we don't understand each other.

There are two places of power in the EU where I, as an individual, could have some weight. The Council of ministers, where national governments haggle with each other, and the European Parliament. I am the first to denounce the Parliament's insufficient power, and I'm the first to want the Parliament to become more important than the council. I know very well the Parliament holds an extremely tiny power in comparison with governments.

My argument is thus twofold:
1. I have no influence whatsoever on my government because I vote for a party that will never be in power. My views are absolutely not taken into account by French negociateors at the council. My individual political weight in the council = 0.

2. I have an extremely small influence in the European Parliament (although it's not 0), in comparison to people from other locations. I admit this inbalance is a necessity for the European construction, and that's why I don't whine about it (I'm still annoyed at it).

My pollitical weight in the most important institution is 0, and my weight in the unimportant institution is the smallest of Europe. So, how can you say that I, Spiffor, am "the man"? I am among the most powerless voting citizens of Europe. The only ones that are more powerless than me are those who don't vote.

If you disagree with my analysis, please explain (rather than assert which is what you do all the time) where my reasoning is wrong.

And that's where it starts all wrong, and you refuse to see it, because well there's the representation, right? Like I said, socialistic way to keep people on a leash.

I do not. I know full well that the big States dominate the Council: not only do they have more votes (and in the Council, each State votes as a bloc, as if 100% of the French backed Chirac, or as if 100% of the Germas backed Schröder), but they also have advantages at getting small countries to support them.

However, I Spiffor am not invited at that table. I weight precisely zero there.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Yep, Finland is overrepresented.

What will EU do about it?

I mean, we can't have that. It's unfair.

Err, I hope you're saying this in jest, in order to twist my words.

I'd be really worried if you were serious

[VetLegion]

Spiffor, you can't reason with them. Out. On the streets. Coordinated antiFinnish demonstrations in all European capitals. Tomorrow. You're the man for Paris. Let's go go go we can still stop this menace.

[Spiffor]

Eh. You can reason with Finns. All of them aren't Pekka

[Pekka]

"1. I have no influence whatsoever on my government because I vote for a party that will never be in power. My views are absolutely not taken into account by French negociateors at the council. My individual political weight in the council = 0."

And this has nothing to do with the weight states can throw in EU. For the record, there is no party for me at all, so as an individual, I'm even 'less represented'. However I don't consider this to be the problem, because this is a problem within the country that I'm in, not EU problem or fault.

"2. I have an extremely small influence in the European Parliament (although it's not 0), in comparison to people from other locations. I admit this inbalance is a necessity for the European construction, and that's why I don't whine about it (I'm still annoyed at it)."

And I have absolutely 0. Yet this is not the problem. Like I've said, you consider this to be the key to power. In paper, could be, in real life, it's not.

Tell me, what does it matter if we have 99% of all MEPs from here? Well in case of 99% it would matter, but in case of now, it doesn't matter, because the power they can weigh in is only MARGINAL. It is THEORETICAL. This is my beef, I've been very clear about it. It doesn't matter at all, when there are certain members that can still do what they want, against everyone else. The number of representors does not matter so much, it's not the key to power. It holds a theoretical and marginal power, in paper, in real life it doesnt'. It's like puppet governments. You can say 'hey but look at that' and yeah, so what?

"and my weight in the unimportant institution is the smallest of Europe."

That tends to be the case if you're a communist. So? My voices is equally nada, because I don't have one. This is a problem inside the member, not EU problem.

You are the man because you defend blindly the current situation, and how it's going to be. Which is the problem between member states, not the problem within the whole EU region when talking about individual voice of a citizen. Which is a problem, but another problem which I'm not pointing to, and haven't pointed to.

" I know full well that the big States dominate the Council"

End of this debate.

What you used earlier as a 'good' argument was that well the smaller states can team up and outweigh the bigger states. Yes? And this is equal... exactly how? Hey, we live in Europe, you want all the small states get together for even a one single thing? Or big and small, doesn't matter really. There are blocs, yeah, however smaller states can never have the power of bigger states.

I say this is a problem, where you are not agreeing. Or at least you haven't before, because this has been the very cornerstone of all my problems with the EU. There are million other problems, but those are exclusively problems in this country, caused by decision makers in THIS country, and it's not the fault of France or Germany or other states.

You tell me, is Malta and say.. Germany equal? No they are not. Will they be? No they won't. It's a bit silly if they were forced to be equal in power, right? Because Malta is small, Germany is big, totally different ball games, it's not realistic, it's not how world works, it wouldn't be beneficiary even most likely in every situation when this scenario would be enforced.

OK! So, my initial statement, that member states are not equal is correct. Equality means, how much they can weigh power in EU.

You say it's not a problem, because borders will vanish and it's a situation where EU citizens can join each other across the borders and find their political soulmates, regardless of their nationality, and join powers, and let's see how things go now.

Sounds good, in theory. My problem, which I have stated a long long time ago, was that I don't have a big problem with that per se. My problem is, if we don't get rid off the power inequality BEFORE we 'vanish' the borders, we will have a situation where the current power players have even more power. Because there's no giving up of the victories and benefits gotten earlier. To argue this is to argue against human nature, against every single human and national act. That's the way it goes.

But this time the problem becomes mroe difficult to see, because we don't now have those imaginary borders, but states. If your position still is, that it doesn't matter because we are now all one, a big happy EU, so who benefits from regional powers because we can go across the borders and the power lies within those ideas and soulmates, across the EU? That's like putting on the blinders and driving in a highway. I feel this is too trivial to even explain, even though you don't want to see it as the most likely outcome.

SO all I'm saying, have been saying and still say is that we need to even out the structures before getting into a new play. 'Trust me!' is BS, we don't trust anyone. Euronites trust, but then again their socialist ideals and agendas usually work as well as car with 1 wheel, that doesn't work.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Pekka
What are you talking about? I didn't say states shouldn't be equal. I said that they aren't, and that's my problem. Next time you want to accuse people of not being educated enough for your taste, please start with someone else.

trying to talk yourself out of this

[Pekka]

I hope you are joking, because this is the problem I have had with the EU (not being equal). And that's all I've been debating about. But then again, you might have a twisted sense of humour.