Huge protest against plans to sell Europe to highest bidder

[Sandman]

On the other hand, most of the biggest companies in France have posted huge profits.

[Saras]

EUR 12'516'651

[Az]

Didn't you hear? Silly Euros don't create businesses they sit around and wait for their governments to do it for them. Just check the start up figures and compare them to say the US, Canada, or even China.

Yeah, silly euros.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Translation, my country has priced itself out of the market so I want everyone else's costs to be raised to my uncompetitive level.

I don't want the others to raise their costs. I want the others (and my own country as well) to raise its quality of life to the level of Sweden or Finland. The EU should be about trying to reach a higher level, rather than to bring everybody down to the lowest level.

Ireland

... started low, and is a prime example of the success of an active policy, where the EU actively subsidies an economy. The Irish can thank the EU for the great increases in infrastructure (as well as a direct capital transfer in the form of agrisubsidies) for having risen so much. The high-tech companies would have never gone there if Ireland continued to have a sucky infrastructure, if we had let it only fight with dulmping.

the Netherlands

.. are having an unpopular government, and the situation isn't all shiny-shiny. Growth, in particular, is quite low.

the UK

The only reason why services are getting gradually better under his Toniness is because Thatcher destroyed it all. On a variety of topics, the quality of life in Britain is vastly inferior to what a country like this could afford.

seem to be doing just fine since hey have lowered their costs compared to other European countries and the doom and gloom you predict has not happened there.

Duh. A significant chunk of their growth comes from companies that have delocalised there. This chunk doesn't come from wealth creation, but from wealth displacement.
When France and Germany make enough dumping to bring these mobile companies back, what will be the UK's or Spain's options? They'll either have to make even more dumping to keep them (thus lowering the quality of working condition, wages, and services) or they'll have to witness a hole in their economy.
What will the British or the Spanish win from that? Nothing. In comparison with 20 years earlier, what will the French or the Germans win from that? Nothing either. Except that an increased chunk of the wealth goes off to profiteers, instead of going to the people

France and Germany will survive the cost cutting and will emerge stronger just like other European states have.

We would emerge stronger at the expanse of other European countries. Just like Britain emerged stronger at our expanse. As a whole, the EU doesn't benefit. And as a whole, the European people lose.

If you folks think the rest of Europe is an unfair competitor then just wait until you have to compete without subsidies or trade restrictions with the rest of the world. It's time for a reality check.

I don't think the rest of Europe is an unfair competitor. I think competition is an absurd way to develop Europe, and we should favour cooperation instad. Competition will lead to the worsening of the Europeans' quality of life, because it is only about getting groth at the expanse of fellow member-States, and in the end, only the capitalists make out like bandits.

[Pekka]

Spiffor, yes yes what ever you say. Except you're wrong. I won't bother to much argue about it, since I'm coming from the real world, and you come from what you feel would be a great EU. Nothing wrong in it, except there is no great EU yet. So, right now, we need to use real life thinking until we get to the great EU. Except we will never agree what great EU will be, because you want it to be communist and prolly racist too.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I don't want the others to raise their costs. I want the others (and my own country as well) to raise its quality of life to the level of Sweden or Finland. The EU should be about trying to reach a higher level, rather than to bring everybody down to the lowest level.

Ok, let's hear your bright proposals to bring Lithuania to Frances leve of GDP/Capita.

[Dinner]

Spiffor you are ignoring wealth creation through business start ups. Right now excessive regulations, high employment costs, high start up costs, and high taxes discourage people from starting their own businesses. Lower taxes & lower regulation (which you dismissed as simply robbing from higher cost countries) helps foster more businesses start ups. That creates new wealth and it just wouldn't happen under your high tax & high regulation system. At least not to such a great an extent.

Also don't you feel blaming Thatcher for everything 16 years after she left office is a bit much?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Saras

Ok, let's hear your bright proposals to bring Lithuania to Frances leve of GDP/Capita.

High taxes and huge worker welfare payments will of course encourage businesses to invest in Lithuania.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Saras
Ok, let's hear your bright proposals to bring Lithuania to Frances leve of GDP/Capita.

Let's try something similar to what happened in Ireland: mucho infrastructure investments, mostly fueled by the EU. Continuous improvement of educational systems. Wealth transfer to the peasantry with the CAP. Steady growth of wages, welfare checks, and quality of working conditions as the GDP increases (thanks in part to western European private investment, naturally). This would make Lithuania contribute more to European domestic demand.

The aim is to reduce social dumping steadily as Lithuania comes closer to its western European neighbours. However, I don't suggest to restrict investment, or to force the Lithuanians to have high wages when they can't afford it. BUT, If said neighbours begin to dump, and enter a rat race with new members, the Lithuanians won't be able to reach the level western Europeans currently enjoy. Unless we create clear anti-dumping laws, that apply to western as well as Eastern Europeans (i.e. the Western ones refuse dumping, and the Eastern ones are committed to raise wages concurrently to GDP growth), we'll be doomed into entering the rat-race.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Spiffor you are ignoring wealth creation through business start ups. Right now excessive regulations, high employment costs, high start up costs, and high taxes discourage people from starting their own businesses. Lower taxes & lower regulation (which you dismissed as simply robbing from higher cost countries) helps foster more businesses start ups. That creates new wealth and it just wouldn't happen under your high tax & high regulation system. At least not to such a great an extent.

Your point is valid-ish for regulation. I don't think taxes (at least at the current level) are a strong repellent to the creation of a company. If people think they can make money by creating their start-up, they'll do so, even if there are taxes. Taxes only become significant when it's more interesting to work as an employee than as an independant. I can tell you that the average independant in my circle of acquaintances makes much more money (and also works much more) than an equivalent person working for a salary. And that's in evil, anti-investment France

Also don't you feel blaming Thatcher for everything 16 years after she left office is a bit much?

Add John Major, who didn't do a thing, but he's in Thatcher's tradition. And it took some time to his Toniness to begin healing the wounds. Fortunately, things are not as terrible now as they used to be, but there's a long way to go for the British quality of life to reach what Britain could afford.

[Saras]

define this 'dumping' you refer to.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Saras
define this 'dumping' you refer to.

I've had five surplus Lithuanians dumped on me. They wanted ten pounds for them, but I've beaten them down to £ 8.75 .



They're all extremely literate, house-trained, cultured and can even recite poetry and sing folksongs.

Am I getting a bargain ?

[Saras]

Nope. Lithuanians are a dime a dozen

[Pekka]

Here's my solution. Let's move all Lithuanians to the sea and leave 10 of them alive. Saras and his family I suggest. Then give all the money to the survivors. Now, the GDP just is HUGE.

[Saras]

BRILLIANT!!!