China's Hydroelectric Response to Kyoto

[GePap]

Originally posted by DaShi


I believe that it what he is comparing it too. How many people does Japan hold?

127 Million.

Yes, this helps identify the problem but doesn't go into detail. Much like. . .

DD, yourself?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by GePap


Maybe the doubling of the population between 1950 and today does.

So you deny the mismanagement of the land?

China is a developing coutry- in NO developing country do you find wonderful care of the environment- hell, just look at the Brazilian rain forest, or Africa. The examples are endless.

I guess that makes it alright then.

[DinoDoc]

Did UR hack into GePap's account?

[GePap]

That site describes various forested regions globally. Several are in China, which would make sense for a country a little bit bigger than the US.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DaShi


So you deny the mismanagement of the land?

No. I doubt there has been ANY management of the land, period.

I guess that makes it alright then.

It makes it normal- a simple reality of massive new populations of people hungry for resources, unable to simply buy them from elsewhere, living of the land.

Only the rich can afford environmentalism. That's why the environment is better in rich countries.

Is any of this really news to you?

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Did UR hack into GePap's account?

The fact this post still exists is proof I didn't, chuckles.

[DinoDoc]

I was just curious how I got pulled into your spat with DaShi.

[GePap]

Your postingt style just screams

Yes, this helps identify the problem but doesn't go into detail. Much like

That's all.

MInor corrections, China is slightly smaller than the US according to the CIA.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by GePap
That site describes various forested regions globally. Several are in China, which would make sense for a country a little bit bigger than the US.

Actually, China is a little smaller than the US.

No. I doubt there has been ANY management of the land, period.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/46652.htm

and go to your own NGO link.

It makes it normal- a simple reality of massive new populations of people hungry for resources, unable to simply buy them from elsewhere, living of the land.

Only the rich can afford environmentalism. That's why the environment is better in rich countries.

Is any of this really news to you?

So this is why all developed nations are deserts, and it's good that China is robbing water from and damaging the environment of its neighbors. You must love the US, if you support this.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DaShi

http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/46652.htm

and go to your own NGO link.

Yes, and? Management assumes someone takes responsiblity and has some sort of plan. Ramdom people going about extracting form the land as they will is not 'management'.

So this is why all developed nations are deserts, and it's good that China is robbing water from and damaging the environment of its neighbors. You must love the US, if you support this.

What a random assed comment. Not funny haha, just funny

The first statement is just, well, dumb. IN Panama I went one time to an area that due to human activity is becoming a desert. That little desert patch is growing. Does not make the country a desert.

I have made no mention of the "morality" of China's damn buinding spree- but sadly, this behavior is nothing new, specially when you have multinational rivers. Heck, Mexico does not really get much water from the Colorado River anymore- and Turkey has significant control over the water resources of its downstream neighbors, Syria and Iraq. If situations were reversed, this would still happen- anyone with significant hydroeletric potential and raging power needs will look to damns as a simple solution. I am sure if fusion came online tommorrow the damn building would end- but that ain't going to happen, so China weill continue feedings its growing energye needs from damns and dirty coal.

Wow, shows just how evil and terrible the Chinese really are

[DaShi]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, and? Management assumes someone takes responsiblity and has some sort of plan. Ramdom people going about extracting form the land as they will is not 'management'.

That the government controls all the land and dictates what is to be done there. There is responsibility.

What a random assed comment. Not funny haha, just funny

The first statement is just, well, dumb. IN Panama I went one time to an area that due to human activity is becoming a desert. That little desert patch is growing. Does not make the country a desert.

This is not a little patch, nor is it your summer trip to Panama. This is not an accurate comparison.

I have made no mention of the "morality" of China's damn buinding spree- but sadly, this behavior is nothing new, specially when you have multinational rivers. Heck, Mexico does not really get much water from the Colorado River anymore- and Turkey has significant control over the water resources of its downstream neighbors, Syria and Iraq. If situations were reversed, this would still happen- anyone with significant hydroeletric potential and raging power needs will look to damns as a simple solution. I am sure if fusion came online tommorrow the damn building would end- but that ain't going to happen, so China weill continue feedings its growing energye needs from damns and dirty coal.

Wow, shows just how evil and terrible the Chinese really are

This thread is about morality and responsibility. Do you think the US does not reap what it sows? How quick some people are to defend the plight of others oppressed by US or even Israeli policy, yet when certain other powerful nations are exploiting and hurting weaker nations, they simply want to discuss which dams work better or justify it. I suppose, if China summarily executed a large number of it's population to reduce a dependence on foreign resources, you would say it is understandable. Or if they rolled over a weaker neighbor to better exploit them, then they are developing so it's ok.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DaShi
That the government controls all the land and dictates what is to be done there. There is responsibility.

Of course, the party has tens of millions of policement in every inch of the country, and has total control over what every single person in China does, all the time. This si why there is no crime in China, why all its regulations are followed to a T...Oh, wait. NO. That would be an absurdity.

This is not a little patch, nor is it your summer trip to Panama. This is not an accurate comparison.

First, it wasn't a summer trip, second, its a perfect comparison- desertification happens world-wide, and the reasons are similar in all the places it occurs. In fact, according to this map:http://www.fao.org/desertification/default.asp?lang=en

Panama is a perfect example of land being damaged, as well as serious deforestation, and all the environmental ills you speak of. And someohow, the government has all these rules on the books, but you know what? Those rules don;t make it.

By the way, ahev YOU ever been anywhere suffering from desertification?

This thread is about morality and responsibility. Do you think the US does not reap what it sows? How quick some people are to defend the plight of others oppressed by US or even Israeli policy, yet when certain other powerful nations are exploiting and hurting weaker nations, they simply want to discuss which dams work better or justify it. I suppose, if China summarily executed a large number of it's population to reduce a dependence on foreign resources, you would say it is understandable. Or if they rolled over a weaker neighbor to better exploit them, then they are developing so it's ok.

:yawn:

Oh yes, building damns is the same as mass executions, or general popular oppression- have you joined some eco-terrorist group lately? Cause that is what you sound like, well, expect for the gratuitous "OMG, YOU ANTI-AMERICAN!!" rightwing rant.

States build damns on their territories to use the resources that flow throught them- its called soverignty and it is the basis of the current world order. China, India, Brazil, Turkey, Indonesia-they cut their forests down, they damn their rivers, they use dirty fuels, and all of it to gain economic growth. You know what? The US and Russia and many others did it before them. That ios what happens.

Its cheap and easy to get into a self-induced moralisitc frenzy. Its also useless. UNless you have an answer to China's or the rest of the developing world's energy needs, or happen to have a few undred billion dollars in your piggy bank to help build clean gas plants and the infrastructure to supply them, then what do you offer, besides spitle?

OH, and by the way: did you support Kyoto? Do you support significant environmental regulations on private businesses and such?

[Drake Tungsten]

Well I'm somewhat shocked that Japan of all places has more forests than China.

Why? It's pretty obvious why that's the case, given the topographies of the two countries.

[Az]

Just look at the ME. GUess what, places like Iraq didn't begin as deserts...

Umm, they weren't forests, either. Slightly wetter grassland, plus swampland ( which is seen even today)

[DaShi]

Originally posted by GePap


Of course, the party has tens of millions of policement in every inch of the country, and has total control over what every single person in China does, all the time. This si why there is no crime in China, why all its regulations are followed to a T...Oh, wait. NO. That would be an absurdity.

The government does have a say in what happens to the land. It determines what is farmland and what isn't. Therefore, it has responsbility. But I said that before. Never did mention individual people. Where did that come from?

First, it wasn't a summer trip, second, its a perfect comparison- desertification happens world-wide, and the reasons are similar in all the places it occurs. In fact, according to this map:http://www.fao.org/desertification/default.asp?lang=en

Panama is a perfect example of land being damaged, as well as serious deforestation, and all the environmental ills you speak of. And someohow, the government has all these rules on the books, but you know what? Those rules don;t make it.

How is the same in method and scale? The Sahara was once not a desert. Does it apply equally as well?

By the way, ahev YOU ever been anywhere suffering from desertification?

And it's irrelevant to the arguement, thus I don't mention it.

:yawn:

Oh yes, building damns is the same as mass executions, or general popular oppression- have you joined some eco-terrorist group lately? Cause that is what you sound like, well, expect for the gratuitous "OMG, YOU ANTI-AMERICAN!!" rightwing rant.

States build damns on their territories to use the resources that flow throught them- its called soverignty and it is the basis of the current world order. China, India, Brazil, Turkey, Indonesia-they cut their forests down, they damn their rivers, they use dirty fuels, and all of it to gain economic growth. You know what? The US and Russia and many others did it before them. That ios what happens.

So when does it stop? And which developing countries should we favor over others? Is America justified in its actions? It may be developed, but it could develop some more and why should their be restrictions on that? Shouldn't it also have every opportunity to maintain its development?

Otherwise, it's a you're screwed, deal with it approach. I guess you can apply that to Iraq as well. What can they do about it? No one cares what happens to them.

Its cheap and easy to get into a self-induced moralisitc frenzy. Its also useless. UNless you have an answer to China's or the rest of the developing world's energy needs, or happen to have a few undred billion dollars in your piggy bank to help build clean gas plants and the infrastructure to supply them, then what do you offer, besides spitle?

I do have a solution to China's energy needs. Slow down growth in certain areas. Invest in better energy program, rather than polluting factories. Deal with poverty, instead of outerspace. It might not catch up to the US as quickly as its wants, but it can spend its money on building a better infrastructure for when it does. Unless you truly believe that there is only one way to do things.

OH, and by the way: did you support Kyoto? Do you support significant environmental regulations on private businesses and such?

I support fair treatment.