EU divided over whether to start Croatia talks

[Spiffor]

BTW, I heard on TV this general was considered as a war hero in Croatia. Is it true?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, I heard on TV this general was considered as a war hero in Croatia. Is it true?

Yes.

[Spiffor]

Aren't you a Serb, Sava?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Aren't you a Serb, Sava?

read earlier post... I'm as much Serb as I am Croat

[Spiffor]

Do your Croatian parents often talk about that guy? My Romanian-origin family never mentions what's currently happening there.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Do your Croatian parents often talk about that guy? My Romanian-origin family never mentions what's currently happening there.

unfortunately, my Croatian grandmother died in 1998 but relatives on her side of the family talk about things when we see them. It's quite humbling to see people denounce their own people and country because of the evil that occurred.

There are two kinds of Croats. Good people that acknowledge and denounce the atrocities, and those like VetLegion who deny and ignore the truth about history and what really happened.

The Croats today aren't much different from WW2. They even tried to use the Ustache flag for the Croatia flag. That's like using the Swastika for Germany.

my grandfather, however, talks quite a bit about things there... we took a trip to Yugoslavia (I will always call it that) in 1999. That was a big part of my life. It was on that trip I realized how wrong and biased the Western media is. The bombing was one of the biggest injustices America has committed. I saw firsthand the results of the Albanian terrorists and their policies.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Sava

There are two kinds of Croats. Good people that acknowledge and denounce the atrocities, and those like VetLegion who deny and ignore the truth about history and what really happened.

I'm really confident that you know THE TRUTH about history and we're all glad you share it with us.
And I've not seen VetLegion deny the existance of Croat atrocities during the war in this thread, nor somewhere else, please point me to such a part.

The Croats today aren't much different from WW2. They even tried to use the Ustache flag for the Croatia flag. That's like using the Swastika for Germany.

It is bad propaganda to label Croats as a whole as you do here. The extreme right is a severe problem in Croatia, but these groups are not in power in Croatia. Replacing the Croatian flag with the Ustacha flag is completely out of question, no important political movement is advocating that. And Croatia is not the only country in Europe, there's quite a few in the EU already with worrying and strong extremist groups (France, Belgium, Germany, Poland e.g.). The Croatian government is working towards the EU and not even starting talks is playing in the hands of those nationalist right forces who always said: "Look, they hate us." Talk about diplomacy... The same people who

my grandfather, however, talks quite a bit about things there... we took a trip to Yugoslavia (I will always call it that) in 1999. That was a big part of my life. It was on that trip I realized how wrong and biased the Western media is. The bombing was one of the biggest injustices America has committed. I saw firsthand the results of the Albanian terrorists and their policies.

Oh, those biased western media, compared to the unbiased knowledge of THE TRUTH ABOUT HISTORY on the Serb side. It was all self defense. Talk about denial...

[Sava]

I'm really confident that you know THE TRUTH about history and we're all glad you share it with us.
And I've not seen VetLegion deny the existance of Croat atrocities during the war in this thread, nor somewhere else, please point me to such a part.

maybe where he called the wikipedia entry, "propaganda"

other than that, you aren't worth responding to... do civilization a favor and step in front of a bus.

[kronic]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III there's quite a few in the EU already with worrying and strong extremist groups ([...] Germany, [...]).

What are you talking about? Strong extremist groups? There are currently extrem right wing parties in 2 out of 16 states' parliaments. These parties get utterly trashed in every national election. And Austria didn't manage to export their scum this time.

I think, the decision was right...

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by kronic

What are you talking about? Strong extremist groups? There are currently extrem right wing parties in 2 out of 16 states' parliaments. These parties get utterly trashed in every national election.

I should have specified East Germany, or even Saxony. At this regional level, they ARE pretty strong.

And Austria didn't manage to export their scum this time.

Oh, I forgot. Austrians evil plan to take over Germany. Why is Hitler's place of birth worth such a fuzz. I blame my fellow countrymen for having joined with enthusiasm the Germans in their Nazi ideology, not for being the place where Hitler was born...

I think, the decision was right...

Which is as legitimate as my opinion that the decision was stupid, unwise and unfair.

[kronic]

Sure, did I attack the legitmacy of your stance towards Croatian membership?

I was rather upset about the claim that Germany faces the problem of a strong extremist group (on a Le Pen or Haider like level). That's simply wrong.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Sava
other than that, you aren't worth responding to... do civilization a favor and step in front of a bus.

Instead of answering reasonably - eloquently proving my arguments to be the dirt they are - insult me by calling me worthless (subhuman?) and wishing me death. I hope you know that you're exactly on Fez's niveau.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Instead of answering reasonably - eloquently proving my arguments to be the dirt they are -

I responded to you in the spirit in which you based your "argument", if what you posted can be even called that.

insult me by calling me worthless (subhuman?)

I did no such thing

and wishing me death.

I merely offered a suggestion.

I hope you know that you're exactly on Fez's niveau.

pot, kettle, black

I remember we had a spat a long time ago about Serbs. As I recall, you are anti-Serb. I only spend my time making coherent arguments to people who are pragmatic and/or open-minded and willing to engage in civilized debate.

But anything I post, you would simply call it Serb propaganda or something like that. So instead of wasting my time, I'll just have fun with you. I have other "suggestions" for you, but this is a family site.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Sava
There are two kinds of Croats. Good people that acknowledge and denounce the atrocities, and those like VetLegion who deny and ignore the truth about history and what really happened.

I have forgotten more history than you will ever learn.

The Croats today aren't much different from WW2. They even tried to use the Ustache flag for the Croatia flag. That's like using the Swastika for Germany.

No.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, I heard on TV this general was considered as a war hero in Croatia. Is it true?

Pretty much so.

The whole problem with him is this. During the Operation Storm which happened in 1995, and in which Croatia retook the occupied third of its territory in a matter of days, most of the Serbs left.

However, a couple thousand stayed, mostly old people who wouldn't leave their homes. Of these, a couple hundred were murdered, presumably for retribution. This happened in the general chaos, but well after the actual fighting. The Croatian police failed to catch the killers and Croatian courts failed to punish them.

Now, court in Hague is looking for someone to blame for that. General Gotovina has been in charge of military operations and civilian affairs for a period in 1995 until proper civilian institutions were established in the regained territories.

Hague is charging him on the bases of command responsability. This means that he can be found guilty even if he didn't commit or order any crimes, but did fail to do everything possible to prevent them, and/or find the purpetrators.

This is of course completely logical. Many Croats, however, see it as unfair on couple of accounts. I'll elaborate.

Firstly, chain of command is not as seriousely taken here as in north Europe whose legal system the court is using. Many think that it is enough that the commander didn't order crimes, and that not literally everything that happens under him is his responsability.

Secondly, victorious armies never go on trial. Take any war you want, the winner is never persecuted, although, due to the nature of the war, we can be pretty sure all sides commit crimes. My Lai and Abu Gharib prison in Iraq, the guy that shot the wounded Iraqi on TV... we only find out about a small percent of this stuff.

And even when things do get found out, the issue is covered up as best as possible, sentences are low and the big fish almost never get hurt.

This is bothering Croatians, since we have indeed won the war here. Also, there is general agreement that we were the good guys too. There is a strong feeling of righteousness. I fact Croatia pushed for the establishment of the Hague court precisely because of the thought that we were the victim. Nobody expected it would bring Croats to trial too.

But when it did, Croatia followed its commitment to the court (it has precedence over national courts) and extradicted not only all of the suspects, but also tons of documents from the war period which would be classified for fifty years in any non-banana country.

What is left, is the Gotovina issue. Croatia did not extradict him to Hague because he is in hiding. The government has issued a warrant, his friends and relatives are being observed and so on. This is a difficult issue for the government, because the main party is reformed nationalists (HDZ) and it got to power in part thanks to the rising anti Hague sentiment in the country.

However, I don't doubt the government would extradict the general to the Hague if it got hold of him. But I doubt it will happen. Hague court has a limited life, I think till 2008. He could wait it out if he is stubborn enough. He has contacts and money, he could be anywhere from Paraguay, France to Croatia.

Regarding the posponement of talks with Croatia. This won't impact either the EU or Croatia much. Croatia is already "owned" by EU companies and multinationals, you think they would let anything bad happen to their investments? Nah . This is only a slight bump on Croatian EU path.

What is irritating many Croats is the treatment we get by EU. Croatia has fulfilled economic criteria, legal criteria and all other criteria for starting the talks, in fact, many economic indicators are better in Croatia than in some new EU members. And EU is now holding us hostage over one guy. This will strengthen euroscepticism here very very much. Belonging to Europe has been a Croatian dream for a long, long time, however, if this situation is prolonged indefinately, and economy continues to improve, it is possible that people would vote NO on referendum about joining the union. This would be a big change though, and won't happen soon. Croats are overwhelmingly proeuropean.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to elaborate.