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While I admit it is possible to reflect on your own morals without a god (maybe you do, I don't know you), I must say it seems unlikely.
So you are telling me atheists are most likely incapable of having morals? What utter bollocks. The same goes for the rest of your religious rant.
You are a reason why I'm atheist. You people who think you are the only one capables of thought, reason and morality...
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
Whatever, GC. I've already explained my reasoning, or tried to anyway, in my posts to Whaleboy. Look them up; we have a long history even before this thread but our current argument is similar to the long term, I was just unusually cranky at the start of this one. I've finally calmed down, sort of, and am trying for damage control now that I've got everybody's blood up with my insolence. Now refute me specifically (explain a non-theistic, consistent system of ethical reasoning) or kindly go away. If I'm not allowed to argue with unsupported assertions, neither are you, even if you are Fez.
Originally posted by Elok
Whatever, GC. I've already explained my reasoning, or tried to anyway, in my posts to Whaleboy. Look them up; we have a long history even before this thread but our current argument is similar to the long term, I was just unusually cranky at the start of this one. I've finally calmed down, sort of, and am trying for damage control now that I've got everybody's blood up with my insolence. Now refute me specifically (explain a non-theistic, consistent system of ethical reasoning) or kindly go away. If I'm not allowed to argue with unsupported assertions, neither are you, even if you are Fez.
I've read your reasoning.. it is saying you religious fundamentalists and crackpots are the only ones capable of morality. This isn't the case as often christians are ones who have trouble with their own morality (crusades anyone?). You are attacking my morals and attacking my lack of beliefs. These are beliefs, not assertions. I have already refuted you... and I didn't have to do a lot of the work in order to do so.. you basically made yourself look bad.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
I am not a fundamentalist, for crying out loud. Orthodoxy, dude, Orthodox Christianity. As for the crusades, "Reign of Terror, anyone?" "Great Leap Forward, anyone?" "Stalin, anyone?" Any philosophy can be extorted into fodder for atrocity. There have been some atheist ones, lots of religious ones, but this is IMO largely due to the fact that religion has been predominant throughout most of history. Fast-forward a couple of centuries and you'll have plenty of barbarism based on philosophies that mention no God whatsoever. The only way to avoid such things, aside from constant social vigilance, is to have nobody believe anything strongly at all. Not likely. But congrats on finally citing a solid example.
BTW, what is frequently not mentioned in these medieval-church-bashing orgies is that the church initially went to a great deal of effort to discourage wanton bloodshed; there were early edicts establishing days of the week when fighting was forbidden, in the vain hope of semi-civilizing the knights. The code of chivalry, as you might notice, had a large religious piety element, involving mercy, loyalty, honesty, and protecting the weak, that was generally ignored because it caused inconvenience, much like the Bill of Rights after 9/11. Eventually the western church turned crooked with power, hence the Crusades and Inquisition and all that other nasty stuff that gets us worked up. Initially, in the dark ages, the church was for the most part a force of good, if an ineffectual one.
Orthodox Christianity? You are pretty close to some of the most fundamentalist sects of christianity. I think it is right I bring up the evil past of christianity and its way of manipulating people. Again Stalin was moreso influenced by his delusions that everybody was out to get him, then any religious factors. He did go after jewish doctors I believe but that was moreso personal delusions.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
Originally posted by Giancarlo
Orthodox Christianity? You are pretty close to some of the most fundamentalist sects of christianity. I think it is right I bring up the evil past of christianity and its way of manipulating people. Again Stalin was moreso influenced by his delusions that everybody was out to get him, then any religious factors. He did go after jewish doctors I believe but that was moreso personal delusions.
careful Gian... don't diss Orthodoxy... that's another subject you know jack**** about.
"Most fundamentalist"? Do you know anything about us beyond the name? We're traditionalists, but tend to be moderate on most issues, especially compared to real fundamentalists (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Dubya, etc.) We're no more fundamentalist than the Catholics. I sincerely hope you're actually using the word fundamentalist to mean what it usually does, and not just "believes in stuff I don't agree with."
And I wasn't saying that Stalin was religious, I was citing him as an example of more or less completely nonreligious atrocity, as were the GLF and the Terror. Well, the Terror had some deist portions, but from what admittedly little I've read nobody but Robespierre was all that gung-ho on that part. It was part of his ludicrous distortion of Rousseau (Ohmigawd, I just realized, that must mean Rousseau is evil! Well, you're sufficiently conservative that you probably agree there, but it works as an example). At any rate, it wasn't Christianity or any conventional religion, that's for sure.
Traditionalist.. fundamentalist? what's the difference? Fascists, nazis? What's the difference? You guys are all in the same.
The atrocities Stalin committed was not out of atheism, but rather his own personal paranoia. I'm not conservative at all because I condemn religion left and right.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
Originally posted by Giancarlo
Traditionalist.. fundamentalist? what's the difference? Fascists, nazis? What's the difference? You guys are all in the same.
Main Entry: tra·di·tion·al·ism
Pronunciation: tr&-'dish-n&-"li-z&m, -'di-sh&-n&l-"i-
Function: noun 1 : adherence to the doctrines or practices of a tradition
2 : the beliefs of those opposed to modernism, liberalism, or radicalism
Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism
Pronunciation: -t&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
I bolded the important parts. Hopefully you can see a difference. The Orthodox church is nothing like the Christian fundamentalist whackos in America.
Originally posted by Sava
I bolded the important parts. Hopefully you can see a difference. The Orthodox church is nothing like the Christian fundamentalist whackos in America.
To me religionists are all the same.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
Originally posted by Elok
Yawn. Ethics is a rationalization of what is properly called morality.
Nah, you have it backwards. Morality is a set of behavioural code back by some religion.
Originally posted by Elok
People want to believe in right and wrong, but without a God, or some form of cosmic truth beyond the empirically known, there's no sensible reason for it.
Why? It's very easy to see from an evolutionary behaviour POV that ethical behaviour is a positive survival trait.
Originally posted by Elok
So they invent one that begs the question anyway.
Originally posted by Elok
UR: I don't believe I'd commit any "atrocity"; the chance of vengeance is too great. Sin is more than just outward behavior.
The point was you wouldn't have a moral code without your God. Thus you can commit any acts, including atrocities.
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
You are pretty close to some of the most fundamentalist sects of christianity. I think it is right I bring up the evil past of christianity and its way of manipulating people. Again Stalin was moreso influenced by his delusions that everybody was out to get him, then any religious factors. He did go after jewish doctors I believe but that was moreso personal delusions.
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