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  • The stupidity of Turkey's Islamists.

    I have an interesting editorial here written by Mr. Pollack, the senior editorial page writer, of the Wall Street Journal. I find much of it to be an obvious distorn which has been created by the American religious right who has been agnry with Turkish Prime Minster Erdogan ever since the Turks didn't help with the invasion. Clearly the Christian right is also fussing about the fact that Erdogan comes from a moderate Islamist party and there for the fundies here think he's some how a jihadist ( ) but still I wanted to share it. Please tell me what you folks think.


    The Sick Man of Europe -- Again

    By Robert L. Pollock
    February 16, 2005; Page A14 (The Wall Street Journal)


    ANKARA, Turkey -- Several years ago I attended an exhibition in Istanbul.
    The theme was local art from the era of the country's last military coup
    (1980). But the artists seemed a lot more concerned with the injustices of
    global capitalism than the fate of Turkish democracy. In fact, to call the
    works leftist caricatures -- many featured fat capitalists with Uncle Sam
    hats and emaciated workers -- would have been an understatement. As one
    astute local reviewer put it (I quote from memory): "This shows that
    Turkish artists were willing to abase themselves voluntarily in ways that
    Soviet artists refused even at the height of Stalin's oppression."


    That exhibition came to mind amid all the recent gnashing of teeth in the
    U.S. over the question of "Who lost Turkey?" Because it shows that a
    50-year special relationship, between longtime NATO allies who fought
    Soviet expansionism together starting in Korea, has long had to weather the
    ideological hostility and intellectual decadence of much of Istanbul's
    elite. And at the 2002 election, the increasingly corrupt mainstream
    parties that had championed Turkish-American ties self-destructed, leaving
    a vacuum that was filled by the subtle yet insidious Islamism of the
    Justice and Development (AK) Party. It's this combination of old leftism
    and new Islamism -- much more than any mutual pique over Turkey's refusal
    to side with us in the Iraq war -- that explains the collapse in relations.


    And what a collapse it has been. On a brief visit to Ankara earlier this
    month with Undersecretary of Defense Doug Feith, I found a poisonous
    atmosphere -- one in which just about every politician and media outlet
    (secular and religious) preaches an extreme combination of America- and
    Jew-hatred that (like the Turkish artists) voluntarily goes far further
    than anything found in most of the Arab world's state-controlled press. If
    I hesitate to call it Nazi-like, that's only because Goebbels would
    probably have rejected much of it as too crude.


    * * *


    Consider the Islamist newspaper Yeni Safak, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip
    Erdogan's favorite. A Jan. 9 story claimed that U.S. forces were tossing so
    many Iraqi bodies into the Euphrates that mullahs there had issued a fatwa
    prohibiting residents from eating its fish. Yeni Safak has also repeatedly
    claimed that U.S. forces used chemical weapons in Fallujah. One of its
    columnists has alleged that U.S. soldiers raped women and children there
    and left their bodies in the streets to be eaten by dogs. Among the paper's
    "scoops" have been the 1,000 Israeli soldiers deployed alongside U.S.
    forces in Iraq, and that U.S. forces have been harvesting the innards of
    dead Iraqis for sale on the U.S. "organ market."


    It's not much better in the secular press. The mainstream Hurriyet has
    accused Israeli hit squads of assassinating Turkish security personnel in
    Mosul, and the U.S. of starting an occupation of Indonesia under the guise
    of humanitarian assistance. At Sabah, a columnist last fall accused the
    U.S. ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, of letting his "ethnic origins" --
    guess what, he's Jewish -- determine his behavior. Mr. Edelman is indeed
    the all-too-rare foreign-service officer who takes seriously his obligation
    to defend America's image and interests abroad. The intellectual climate in
    which he's operating has gone so mad that he actually felt compelled to
    organize a conference call with scientists from the U.S. Geological Survey
    to explain that secret U.S. nuclear testing did not cause the recent
    tsunami.


    Never in an ostensibly friendly country have I had the impression of
    embassy staff so besieged. Mr. Erdogan's office recently forbade Turkish
    officials from attending a reception at the ambassador's residence in honor
    of the "Ecumenical" Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, who resides in
    Istanbul. Why? Because "ecumenical" means universal, which somehow makes it
    all part of a plot to carve up Turkey.


    Perhaps the most bizarre anti-American story au courant in the Turkish
    capital is the "eighth planet" theory, which holds not only that the U.S.
    knows of an impending asteroid strike, but that we know it's going to hit
    North America. Hence our desire to colonize the Middle East.


    It all sounds loony, I know. But such stories are told in all seriousness
    at the most powerful dinner tables in Ankara. The common thread is that
    almost everything the U.S. is doing in the world -- even tsunami relief --
    has malevolent motivations, usually with the implication that we're acting
    as muscle for the Jews.


    In the face of such slanders Turkish politicians have been utterly silent.
    In fact, Turkish parliamentarians themselves have accused the U.S. of
    "genocide" in Iraq, while Mr. Erdogan (who we once hoped would set for the
    Muslim world an example of democracy) was among the few world leaders to
    question the legitimacy of the Iraqi elections. When confronted, Turkish
    pols claim they can't risk going against "public opinion."


    All of which makes Mr. Erdogan a prize hypocrite for protesting to
    Condoleezza Rice the unflattering portrayal of Turkey in an episode of the
    fictional TV show "The West Wing." The episode allegedly depicts Turkey as
    having been taken over by a retrograde populist government that threatens
    women's rights. (Sounds about right to me.)


    In the old days, Turkey would have had an opposition party strong enough to
    bring such a government closer to sanity. But the only opposition now is a
    moribund Republican People's Party, or CHP, once the party of Ataturk. At a
    recent party congress, its leader accused his main challenger of having
    been part of a CIA plot against him. That's not to say there aren't a few
    comparatively pro-U.S. officials left in the current government and the
    state bureaucracies. But they're afraid to say anything in public. In
    private, they whine endlessly about trivial things the U.S. "could have
    done differently."


    Entirely forgotten is that President Bush was among the first world leaders
    to recognize Prime Minister Erdogan, while Turkey's own legal system was
    still weighing whether he was secular enough for the job. Forgotten have
    been decades of U.S. military assistance. Forgotten have been years of
    American efforts to secure a pipeline route for Caspian oil that terminates
    at the Turkish port of Ceyhan. Forgotten has been the fact that U.S.
    administrations continue to fight annual attempts in Congress to pass a
    resolution condemning modern Turkey for the long-ago Armenian genocide.
    Forgotten has been America's persistent lobbying for Turkish membership in
    the European Union.


    Forgotten, above all, has been America's help against the PKK. Its
    now-imprisoned leader, Abdullah Ocalan, was expelled from Syria in 1998
    after the Turks threatened military action. He was then passed like a hot
    potato between European governments, who refused to extradite him to Turkey
    because -- gasp! -- he might face the death penalty. He was eventually
    caught -- with the help of U.S. intelligence -- sheltered in the Greek
    Embassy in Nairobi. "They gave us Ocalan. What could be bigger than that?"
    says one of a handful of unapologetically pro-U.S. Turks I still know.


    I know that Mr. Feith (another Jew, the Turkish press didn't hesitate to
    note), and Ms. Rice after him, pressed Turkish leaders on the need to
    challenge some of the more dangerous rhetoric if they value the Turkey-U.S.
    relationship. There is no evidence yet that they got a satisfactory answer.
    Turkish leaders should understand that the "public opinion" they cite is
    still reversible. But after a few more years of riding the tiger, who
    knows? Much of Ataturk's legacy risks being lost, and there won't be any of
    the old Ottoman grandeur left, either. Turkey could easily become just
    another second-rate country: small-minded, paranoid, marginal and -- how
    could it be otherwise? -- friendless in America and unwelcome in Europe.


    Mr. Pollock is a senior editorial page writer at the Journal.


    (The Wall Street Journal)
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

  • #2
    I think most of these problems are being magnified by the religious establishments in both countries but it would help if Erdogan was finally let someone else take his place. The Turkish military has had problems with his party being to Islamist in the past but fortunately the Turkish Army is still there to prevent overt religious policies from being put into place.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
      Want to summarise?
      No, you evil commies are lazy and need to be forced to work.
      Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

      Comment


      • #4
        Pretty close. I knew you could do it.

        He does have an interesting point about the anti-Americanism found in Turkey's press and how can Erdogan complain about American TV producers making up a plot where the bad guys are Turks when the Turkish government allows tons of blantant lies to be printed by supposedly serious journalists in Turkey?

        The Turks have a problem in that no one in Europe likes them or will help them when the chips are down, America does help them, but Erdogan is an Islamist which must appease his base by constantly speaking out against America. He needs to learn who his friends are and start acting accordingly.
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

        Comment


        • #5
          Considering that I never went to Turkey, and that Ididn't speak with many Turks, I can't say whether what he describes is right or wrong. Save for this:

          The episode allegedly depicts Turkey as having been taken over by a retrograde populist government that threatens women's rights. (Sounds about right to me.)

          Hello? You mean a government that is having an extreme free-marketeerr policy (= non-populist)? A government that is modernising the institutions at fast pace for entry in the EU? A government that gave up his attempts at making adultery illegal? A government that is mending the gaps with Greece?

          Erdogan's government is the most modernist Turkish government that I heard of since Atatürk's. These kind of comments certainly don't help the credibility of the article.

          Edit: a bit of clarification.
          Last edited by Spiffor; February 17, 2005, 14:49.
          "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
          "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
          "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Oerdin
            He needs to learn who his friends are and start acting accordingly.
            I'm not sure who you mean. The people (that are keeping him in power) or Europe (that has officially started the integration negocaiations) ?
            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

            Comment


            • #7
              Yeah, I have a feeling this article is written from a right wing Christian fundimentalist stand point by a guy who got his panties in a bunch when Edrogan questioned a few of Bush's policies. The Bushies don't tend to take criticism very well.
              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

              Comment


              • #8
                "Perhaps the most bizarre anti-American story au courant in the Turkish
                capital is the "eighth planet" theory, which holds not only that the U.S.
                knows of an impending asteroid strike, but that we know it's going to hit
                North America. Hence our desire to colonize the Middle East."

                looks like sombody there took "Peshawar Lancers" too seriously

                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment


                • #9
                  Whenever the WSJ writes about Canada, it seems to be talking about some other country. Perhaps it has gotten Turkey confused with Iran this time around.
                  Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And you call us anti-american

                    Some of the stuff he describes is very sig-worthy btw
                    Last edited by laurentius; February 17, 2005, 15:06.
                    Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.

                    - Paul Valery

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mr. Pollock is a senior editorial page writer at the Journal.
                      I would have read it, but the WSJ editorial page is a right-wing rag and not worth my time.
                      To us, it is the BEAST.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Spiffor

                        I'm not sure who you mean. The people (that are keeping him in power) or Europe (that has officially started the integration negocaiations) ?
                        What I mean is there has been a lot of knee jerk anti-Americanism in Turkey over the decades but the Islamists have been the worst. Yet, when Turkey needed IMF help it was the US who backed them, when the Euros wouldn't hand over Ocalan it was the CIA who got him for them, when France (and others) stated claiming Turkey doesn't belong in Europe it was the US who said they are a western country.

                        It seems the US keeps helping out Turkey and all we get in return is Erdogan bad mouthing us. Erdogan needs to figure out who butters his bread and stop the knee jerk reactions.
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I wonder what will Ancyrean tell about it?
                          "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                          I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                          Middle East!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The stupidity of Turkey's Islamists.

                            And at the 2002 election, the increasingly corrupt mainstream parties that had championed Turkish-American ties self-destructed, leaving a vacuum that was filled by the subtle yet insidious Islamism of the
                            Justice and Development (AK) Party. It's this combination of old leftism and new Islamism -- much more than any mutual pique over Turkey's refusal
                            to side with us in the Iraq war -- that explains the collapse in relations.
                            The real problem of Turkish-American relationship these days is a lack of a near perfect confluence of interests (which was the case before the occupation of Iraq) between the two countries. Everything else is more a reflection of this than a cause of it.

                            First of all, when the US was pressing Turkey to join the war effort back in 2003, the Turkish public opinion was very strongly against it. In addition, the AKP government was itself more than a little bewildered by the severity of the decision at hand, not quite understanding the reasons behind the US decision to invade Iraq. Despite all this, the fact that 2/3 of that party voted in the parliament in favour of the US invasion should take some credit off the claims of Pollock quoted above (and I'm not even a fan of AKP in saying this).


                            And what a collapse it has been. On a brief visit to Ankara earlier this month with Undersecretary of Defense Doug Feith, I found a poisonous atmosphere -- one in which just about every politician and media outlet
                            (secular and religious) preaches an extreme combination of America- and Jew-hatred that (like the Turkish artists) voluntarily goes far further than anything found in most of the Arab world's state-controlled press. If I hesitate to call it Nazi-like, that's only because Goebbels would probably have rejected much of it as too crude.
                            The anti-Americanism in the Turkish press is more in the tones of nervous skepticism, rather than being universally conspiratorial. I don't quite understand what he means by the "extreme anti-semitism" he claims to have observed in the Turkish press. There has been widespread criticism of Israeli policies in the past 2 years, but that's really different from "extreme anti-semitism", assuming that he's aware of the distinction.


                            Consider the Islamist newspaper Yeni Safak, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's favorite. A Jan. 9 story claimed that U.S. forces were tossing so many Iraqi bodies into the Euphrates that mullahs there had issued a fatwa prohibiting residents from eating its fish. Yeni Safak has also repeatedly claimed that U.S. forces used chemical weapons in Fallujah. One of its
                            columnists has alleged that U.S. soldiers raped women and children there and left their bodies in the streets to be eaten by dogs. Among the paper's "scoops" have been the 1,000 Israeli soldiers deployed alongside U.S.
                            forces in Iraq, and that U.S. forces have been harvesting the innards of dead Iraqis for sale on the U.S. "organ market."
                            Yeni Þafak is not a mainstream paper, and the "stories" published there found no endorsement in the mainstream press.


                            It's not much better in the secular press. The mainstream Hurriyet has accused Israeli hit squads of assassinating Turkish security personnel in Mosul, and the U.S. of starting an occupation of Indonesia under the guise of humanitarian assistance. At Sabah, a columnist last fall accused the U.S. ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, of letting his "ethnic origins" --
                            guess what, he's Jewish -- determine his behavior. Mr. Edelman is indeed the all-too-rare foreign-service officer who takes seriously his obligation to defend America's image and interests abroad. The intellectual climate in
                            which he's operating has gone so mad that he actually felt compelled to organize a conference call with scientists from the U.S. Geological Survey to explain that secret U.S. nuclear testing did not cause the recent
                            tsunami.
                            Hurriyet is known for its populist outbursts every now and then. The "Israeli-hitsquad" theory was not emphasised after initial mention. A columnist in Sabah said this or that, well that's a columnist in Sabah. The same papers, alongside others in the mainstream, also highlighted the Turkish Foreign Ministers recent visit to Israel last month, without criticising/expressing outrage against the importance we give to maintain the friendship of both Israel and Palestinians, and the developing political, economic and military ties with Israel. There was no "outrage" against such an "anti-anti-Semitic" attitude, if I may call it that. Who else from the Muslim world is visiting Israel these days anyway?

                            Never in an ostensibly friendly country have I had the impression of embassy staff so besieged. Mr. Erdogan's office recently forbade Turkish officials from attending a reception at the ambassador's residence in honor of the "Ecumenical" Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, who resides in Istanbul. Why? Because "ecumenical" means universal, which somehow makes it all part of a plot to carve up Turkey.
                            It was part of a decades long policy, one that long predates AKP. In a secular country like Turkey (or in Turkey's brand of secularism, if you will), no such religious leader is so easily allowed to claim spiritual titles like "the Universal Patriarch of the Orthodox Christians". It was Turkey that abolished the Caliphate, for that matter. So, to bar any interpretation of recognition of that claim, they forbade attendance to a reception the invitation of which bore that very title. It's nothing more, nothing less.


                            Perhaps the most bizarre anti-American story au courant in the Turkish capital is the "eighth planet" theory, which holds not only that the U.S.
                            knows of an impending asteroid strike, but that we know it's going to hit North America. Hence our desire to colonize the Middle East.
                            Well I have to agree with the following remark:

                            It all sounds loony, I know.
                            Ok, more seriously:

                            But such stories are told in all seriousness
                            at the most powerful dinner tables in Ankara. The common thread is that almost everything the U.S. is doing in the world -- even tsunami relief --
                            has malevolent motivations, usually with the implication that we're acting as muscle for the Jews.
                            Certainly, this "forecoming" comet strike is not taken as a basis for foreign policy decision making. As for the remarks in the press again, there were never headlines about the Grand American-Jewish Conspiract to Take Over the World, unlike what Pollock's tone of alarm and outrage implies.

                            In the face of such slanders Turkish politicians have been utterly silent. In fact, Turkish parliamentarians themselves have accused the U.S. of
                            "genocide" in Iraq, while Mr. Erdogan (who we once hoped would set for the Muslim world an example of democracy) was among the few world leaders to
                            question the legitimacy of the Iraqi elections. When confronted, Turkish pols claim they can't risk going against "public opinion."
                            The comment of one such parliamentarian was criticised by the Government as too much. And Erdogan questioned the legitimacy of Iraqi elections, so what? The government also later endorsed the election as a positive step forward.

                            Entirely forgotten is that President Bush was among the first world leaders to recognize Prime Minister Erdogan, while Turkey's own legal system was
                            still weighing whether he was secular enough for the job. Forgotten have been decades of U.S. military assistance. Forgotten have been years of American efforts to secure a pipeline route for Caspian oil that terminates at the Turkish port of Ceyhan. Forgotten has been the fact that U.S. administrations continue to fight annual attempts in Congress to pass a resolution condemning modern Turkey for the long-ago Armenian genocide. Forgotten has been America's persistent lobbying for Turkish membership in the European Union. Forgotten, above all, has been America's help against the PKK.
                            True enough. However, the reflections in Turkey of worldwide criticsim of US policy is natural, not abnormal, and the actuality and proximity of the Iraqi problem naturally steals the limelight, but this does not mean these acts he quotes above are not regarded with sincere and sober gratidude.

                            Also, it's useful to remember that the US did all of these because these were in accordance with the long term US interests (this is not meant to be a sneer, as many Americans are sometimes inclined to preceive):

                            -Where else you want the pipeline to pass? Iran? Russia? China?

                            - EU membership of Turkey is a tremendous psychological coup against those trying to foment long term civilizational conflict and a Turkey stable and democratic enough to be in he EU would be a a flagpole of a viable alternative to the poignant political and economic stagnancy widespread in the Middle East.

                            - US help against PKK and Presidential efforts against the recognition of a so called "Armenian genocide" were necessary to sustain that long term relationship, as their witholding would irreversibly poison any cooperation, however beneficial they might be for both countries.

                            Despite everything Pollock criticises here, I believe there's still enough of a common ground and a tradition of cooperation and alliance between Turkey and the US as to make the relationship essential and viable. On the other hand I would also agree that the divergence in interests/perceptions as developed contain the seeds of mutual mistrust, in particular in connection with what happens next in Northern Iraq and whether the US watches/lets/causes an independent Kurdish state there.

                            In that sense, I would further agree that the AKP people should be thinking more before talking, and wish they had more of what they call "sophistication" .
                            "Common sense is as rare as genius" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The episode allegedly depicts Turkey as having been taken over by a retrograde populist government that threatens women's rights. (Sounds about right to me.)


                              IIRC (I didn't see it, but a Turk I know who did was irritated by it), the episode had the Turkish gov't execute a woman for adultery. Adultery has in fact been legal in Turkey for several decades, and the death penalty was abolished a few years ago (under the Erdogan gov't, IIRC). While there was talk about banning adultery recently it was quickly rejected, and certainly the proposal didn't proscribe execution. So it was a pretty severe misrepresentation on the part of the West Wing.

                              Erdogan's gov't has made some huge improvements in human rights for Turkey, and its Islamist tendencies have been kept in check. Net plus.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

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