Bush to seek Amtrak subsidy cuts

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
Yes, but there's got to be better ways using much less direct government involvement.

There is one, that doesn't involve direct nationalization: force by law the freight companies to split between a company that owns the tracks and one that operates them. And force the company that owns tracks to lease it to everybody for the same price, thus levelling the field. But then you'll have the usual headaches that have been seen in Britain in the times of Railtrack: sloppy maintenance, lack of vision.

State owned tracks are much better, because the State understands its role as supplier of externalities. When a State manages infrastructure, it generally doesn't attempt at making a direct profit out of it, knowing that a good (cheap) use of the infrastructure will result in greater growth and eventual tax dollars.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
It depends on the kind of involvement you're willing to put in. When I was in France I got a Paris-Bordeaux return trip for 40 euros - that's 800km, twice.

I'm curious to know though, is the SNCF a money-drainer?

The SNCF is a money drainer because it has to manage plenty of regional lines that have few customers. The TGV lines (among which Paris-Bordeaux, which I take regularily, although I have never had such a huge rebate ) are the profitable ones. Thanks to the TGV lines, the SNCF is much less subsidized as it would be otherwise.

Currently, the SNCF earns as much as the salary mass (well, it may be a bit more now, since there have been attempts at raising the profitability for some years). The rest is subsidized.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor
State owned tracks are much better, because the State understands its role as supplier of externalities. When a State manages infrastructure, it generally doesn't attempt at making a direct profit out of it, knowing that a good (cheap) use of the infrastructure will result in greater growth and eventual tax dollars.

True, but the prices in the US are pretty cheap I think (maybe that's just on the west coast or something). People just don't want to ride the train. Why? I don't know.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Smiley
This shouldn't be about love of private companies or love of competition- it should be about love of getting from point A to B cheap and fast.

Which is precisely why I oppose privatization of French rail . French rail has an outstanding quality of service (second only to Japan's), and there is absolutely no need to privatize it.

Since the network is heavily used where trains are the "natural" transportation system (commuters in densely populated city, inter-big-city transportation), you can't really have more customers, except on small regional lines, which require individual attention. But you can lose customers bigtime. If you raise prices (what the SNCF has begun to do, although prices evolve both ways) and reduce staff, the price/quality ratio sinks, and people will prefer other modes of transportation, which are on the lookout. Heck, even my fanatical pro-train self recently took the plane between Paris and Toulouse, because the plane cost me the same and took 1 hour instead of 5.

Fortunately, our privatization planners aren't as stupid as the German ones, and we won't see quality sink instantly to abysmal levels. But the attempts at making the SNCF profitable are progressively worsening the quality indeed

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Smiley
What really needs to be used as a comparison for rail however isn't buses or any other mass transit- it's driving.

It's about 300 miles on the road from NY to DC, with four toll sections (Hudson River, NJ Turnpike, Delaware River, Baltimore Harbor) Total toll I recall being around $20 each way. Assuming a gas mileage of 20 mpg and gas costing $2 a gallon, that's $30 for gas each way. For a typical weekend trip or business convention, two days of parking will run about $50.

Therefore, a round trip from NY-DC by car weighs in at $150, assuming single occupancy.

That's the price that rail needs to beat. Can it be done in the NE Corridor? Quite likely.

You have to figure depreciation of your car too.

[Bosh]

Another problem in America is that gas isn't sold at its 'true' price, namely that its price doesn't reflect environmental costs and the loss of efficiency due to traffic. In France for instance it costs significantly more to fill your car than to buy a train ticket.

Yeah that and the costs of building highways that the cars are driving on and the cost of people getting sick from breathing in exhaust.

I love the Korean public transportation system, the Seoul subway system is great, there's buses absolutely everywhere and the new KTX train is one of the fastest in the world. Not bad for a country that makes me pay 3% of my paycheck in taxes.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Fortunately, our privatization planners aren't as stupid as the German ones, and we won't see quality sink instantly to abysmal levels.

Sad but true what you say about the german Railroad System.

I don´t even exactly know why the quality has dropped to these levels.
I think it was a lack of foresight combined with pricaes far too high.

It seems to me that after Privatization, the Deutsche Bahn AG has spent a lot of money in Prestige Objects, like some Prestige Railroad Stations (Köln and Dresden fore example) which include Shops and are very High Tech and the ICE-Lines (our High Speed Trains)
but that it neglected other things like the tracks themselves or "normal" stations and lines and also didn´t take into account that the Engines themselves get older and one day have to be replaced.

Now we have reliable ICE-Lines (which only few people use, because they are so expensive) but commuter trains which often are late, some shiny High-Tech Railway stations and a lot of stations, which are dirty and decayed.

To only privatize the mobile Equipment, while stationary equipment like tracks and stations are handled by the government sounds like a much better alternative.

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You have to figure depreciation of your car too.

That'd only be an issue if people who ride the trains don't own cars.

[DanS]

Wait, the tracks are privately owned, and the public company operates them?

Almost all of the tracks are privately owned and run freight. Amtrak runs passengers on these lines from time to time and pays the private company fees for use of these tracks.

The private company is obliged by law to give Amtrak access to the tracks and to give the passenger trains higher priority than freight.

But it's important to note that the amount of freight running on these lines dwarfs the number of passengers. It's completely opposite of what you have in Europe, for instance. Freight rail keeps trucks off the road.

[el freako]

Originally posted by DanS
But it's important to note that the amount of freight running on these lines dwarfs the number of passengers. It's completely opposite of what you have in Europe, for instance. Freight rail keeps trucks off the road.

DanS is right about this, the EU15 had passenger journeys of 303bn passenger-km in 2000 compared to the US's 8bn, but the amount of freight shifted was vastly more in the US (2093bn tonne-km compared to 254bn in the EU15)

[chequita guevara]

On our Tri-Rail system here in South-East Florida, freight has priority over passagers. In Chicago, passangers have priority over freight on Metra.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanS
At a minimum, the user fees cover federal government involvement in these industries.

How do you figure? When I pay my road user fee (I.E. my car registration) I pay the state not the federal government. The state gets additional money from the fed as a bribe to keep following federal laws. It is a subsidy which the state never has to repay.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Smiley


That'd only be an issue if people who ride the trains don't own cars.

Huh? First, some people who ride the train don't own cars, but what does that have to do with people who do own cars. Why wouldn't they consider the depreciation of the cars?

[DanS]

How do you figure? When I pay my road user fee (I.E. my car registration) I pay the state not the federal government. The state gets additional money from the fed as a bribe to keep following federal laws. It is a subsidy which the state never has to repay.

The federal government collects $0.184 per gallon of gasoline in taxes. Each state sets its own taxes above and beyond the federal taxes. For instance, California collects an additional $0.18 per gallon. Here is a good state list.

http://taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=345&Topic2id=90

These federal user fees are more or less distributed to fund the freeways. But the gasoline user fees also fund rail and other public transportation.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Smiley
That's why the Japanese rail system works so well, both under public and private management.

I have to agree with this. The Japanese have a rail system everyone should envy because the state has paid massive amounts of money to insure every city in Japan has the best possible rail service. I could get an express train from Narita to Tokyo which traveled 80 miles, cost $10, and took like 35 minutes. That is the system we should be aiming for.

They've been talking about building such a system in California for 20 years but nothing ever seems to get done. Even Arnie keeps making nice noises about the California High Speed Rail Network but he has yet to order any lines be constructed.