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Hiroshima: a (probably overly long) exposé

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  • Hiroshima: a (probably overly long) exposé

    Recently, it has come to my attention that there are various myths regarding the pure motives of the United States in WWII. There are various actions in which the US was decidedly not as pure as we like to think, but for me, the most shocking example of historical revisionism going on now is the mass denial of what happened on August 6th, 1945.

    [A warning to the credulous: the following is based entirely on hard sources, found in those places that are rumoured to still exist: libraries. Calling for a link will get you no-where.]

    On March 9th, 1944, the US destroyed most of Tokyo in a massive firebombing attack. This, coupled with a campaign in the following weeks that had a similar, if slightly less severe effect, made the Japanese realize that they had, beyond the shadow of doubt, lost the Pacific war. On July 18th, the emperor sent Truman a telegram asking for peace, at basically any price but the disolution of the Japanese imperial throne. The US did not respond (Bruce Franklin, Star Wars: The Superweapon and the American Imagination). At least, not with words. The US did, however, respond with more bombs. They proceded to bomb every city that had more than 50k inhabitants, leaving only Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and two other cities relatively unharmed (Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing).
    Meanwhile, the atomic bomb was being developed. Initially, it was being developed in competition with the Germans, yet by 1944, it had become clear that Germany had no credible atomic bomb program. But the beast had been unleashed, and development of the bomb continued. The rational was to intimidate the Soviets. This became one of the excuses for dropping the bomb on Japan. Yet, not only did dropping the bomb on Japan not stop the USSR from dominating Eastern Europe, but the dropping of the bomb on a Japanese city was certainly not necessary to demonstrate the power of an atomic bomb. In fact, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was not necessary to prove its destructive power to the Japanese. There were people in the US military who said that it would be a breach of everything the US stands for to drop the bomb on Japan without first demonstrating its power. One of these people was Ralph Bard, undersecretary of they navy. He was forced to resign (Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing).
    Another excuse was the forcing of Japan's unconditional surrender. To achieve this a plan was formed for the invasion of Japan. An invasion which, according to Secretary of State Henry Stimson would cost 100k to 130k American lives. Suspiciously, this figure seems to have been made up. According to the US chiefs of staff, the invasion would have cost 25k to 50k American lives (ibid). As a sidenote, 200k Japanese (the great majority of whom were civilians) died because of Hiroshima.
    However, it was wartime, and American lives are always to be valued over her enemies'. But, why did anyone have to die at that point? The Japanese were trying to negotiate with the US. In fact, according to the US Strategic Bombing Survey, "Japan would have surrendered even if atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. ...The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs did not defeat Japan, nor...did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender (Jay Lifton and Greg Mitchell, Hiroshima in America: 50 years of denial)."
    The US government tacitly acknowledged the unnecessity of the bomb by organizing a cover-up. On August 6th, Truman said, "16 hours ago an American plane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army military base (ibid)." He made no mention of the fact that 400K people lived in Hiroshima, and that the bomb was aimed at the center of the city, and not the military base.
    Alas, the destruction at Hiroshima was hard to keep the public from discovering. However, the government tried its best. Scientists were flown in and stated that there was no lingering radiation. Leslie Groves informed Congress that people who fell to the bomb died instantly, and that "they say [radiation] is a very pleasant way to die ((Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing)." (I hope I don't need to mention that radiation is in fact less than the most pleasant method of death. Though, to give Groves credit, they probably didn't know the exact effects of radaiation until later, so he is just making **** up, and not going against a known truth.)
    Years passed, and basically everyone connected with the bombing left the public view. By the 1980s, the historical community agreed that the Hiroshima was unnecessary. Yet, on the 40th anniversary of Hiroshima, ABC stations across America said the following: "What happened over Japan 40 years ago was a human tragedy that cost tens of thousands of lives. But what was planned to take place in the war between Japan and the US would almost certainly have been an even greater tragedy, costing hundreds of thousands of lives (Jay Lifton and Greg Mitchell, Hiroshima in America: 50 years of denial)."
    Now, even if we ignore the fact that the invasion of Japan was unnecessary, this is still a spurious statement. Hundreds of thousands of lives were lost, to potentially save tens of thousands of lives. Are the people are ABC bad at comparative math, or is this more sinister than that?
    In 1995, the National Air and Space museum prepared an exhibit of the never-before-seen Enola Gay, as well as explain Hiroshima, the history surrounding it, the reasons for and against the bombing, and show the effects of the bombing. In all, doing what a museum should, and giving a public venue for history. Yet, this was deemed unacceptable. The US airforce magazine demanded a "proud and patriotic" display of Enola Gay. The American Legion condemned the museum for its [obvious] intention to paint US airmen as war criminals. Even the Washington Post argued against such a display. These groups had influence with congress, which passed a resolution stating that the (as yet unsee) exhibit was "revisionist, unbalanced, and offensive. (Ibid)"
    In order to continue funding, the directed, Martin Harwit, was forced to negotiate with the veterans, and allow them an oversight position regarding the exhibit. As a consequence, the scholarly debate over whether the bomb should have been dropped was removed. Almost everything concerning the effects of the atomic bomb was removed. Truman was depicted as not realizing that Hiroshima was not a military target (discovery of his journal from the potsdam conference proves that he knew that Hiroshima was not a military target, but, I mean, Hiroshima is a city! How do you confuse a city with a military installation!?), abd it was also pointed out that the entire population of Japan was armed with bamboo spears, thus meaning that no Japanese were civilians (this included childred, interestingly).
    The coup de gras was when the American Legion insisted that it be mentioned that the bomb saved a million america lives. Let me repeat this. The American Legion insisted that the Smithsonian state that the invasion of Japan would have costed 1 million American lives. The highest estimate for the loses during an invasion of Japan is 63k, with the estimate generally being between 20K and 25K (smithsonian institute). Harwit categorically refused to go along with this. The response was Congress asking for his resignation, and threatening to reduce the funding for institute.
    As a result, the entire exhibit was canceled.

    On a personal level, I went through high school believing that an invasion was necessary, and that the bomb saved lives. Youth were (and still are) being taught a convienient version of history. But we are a democracy, and live in a country of free speech. Why must certain aspects of our heritage be hidden from us? Do we have to lie about everything we do that doesn't fit our image of ourselves?
    The point, for me, is that, basically, I thought we were better than this.
    Discuss.
    "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

  • #2
    Summary:
    The point, for me, is that, basically, I thought we were better than this.

    Comment


    • #3
      We argued this back in 1998 back when there was no off topic

      Alot of the argument is pure speculation and has already been put forward many times already

      Secondly the firebombing in both Japan and Germany was much worse than the atomic bombs
      We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

      Comment


      • #4
        The Soviets had, at the request of the US, agreed to enter the war against Japan once Germany was defeated. However, the US was determined to head off Soviet occupation of northern China and Korea. Dropping the bomb served 3 purposed: It ended the war quickly, before the Soviet invasion of Mancuria could really get underway, it was intended to intimidate the USSR in the postwar world, and it tested the bomb on people.

        Talk about heading off a US invasion of the home islands was just smoke. The Japanese were ready to surrender almost unconditionaly by this time; they only wanted assurances about the Emperor's positon, something the US eventually accomodated.
        Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

        www.tecumseh.150m.com

        Comment


        • #5
          By the 1980s, the historical community agreed that the Hiroshima was unnecessary.
          And

          In 1995, the National Air and Space museum prepared an exhibit of the never-before-seen Enola Gay, as well as explain Hiroshima, the history surrounding it, the reasons for and against the bombing, and show the effects of the bombing. In all, doing what a museum should, and giving a public venue for history. Yet, this was deemed unacceptable. The US airforce magazine demanded a "proud and patriotic" display of Enola Gay. The American Legion condemned the museum for its [obvious] intention to paint US airmen as war criminals. Even the Washington Post argued against such a display. These groups had influence with congress, which passed a resolution stating that the (as yet unsee) exhibit was "revisionist, unbalanced, and offensive. (Ibid)"
          In order to continue funding, the directed, Martin Harwit, was forced to negotiate with the veterans, and allow them an oversight position regarding the exhibit. As a consequence, the scholarly debate over whether the bomb should have been dropped was removed. Almost everything concerning the effects of the atomic bomb was removed.

          Comment


          • #6
            I suspect you meant 'coup de grace' instead of 'coup de gras'.

            Unless you have a fondness for liver pate.

            Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

            ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

            Comment


            • #7
              What a bunch of mushy thinking and hindsight revisionism.

              63000 was one estimate at one point by Marshall of US casualties just for Olympic. It was based on a serious under-estimate of Japanese strength on Kyushu, which was triple what the US had been planning for. General Marshall: "will not cost us in casualties more than 63,000 of the 190,000 combatant troops estimated as necessary for the operation". Well, there turned out to be 790,000 Japanese troops on Kyushu alone. At Okinawa, it took over 50,000 US casualties to defeat roughly 150,000 Japanese troops. More realistic estimates were in the neighborhood of 250,000 US casualties for Olympic alone. (note that casualties = killed+wounded, you seem to be mixing casualties and deaths above)

              Also remember, Olympic was only phase one to seize Kyushu as a staging area, it would be the much larger Operation Coronet to actually seize the Kanto plain and Tokyo. The estimate for the 2 operations was generally around 1 million US casualties, which is where the American Legion gets its figures. As evidence that this was a more serious estimate, look among other things at the extra million Purple Hearts the US ended the war with, the bulk of which were ordered in preparation for the invasion of Japan. Thankfully, they were not necessary for WWII, but are still being distributed even today, after having been enough for Korea, Vietnam, Gulf Wars I & II and all other minor military actions over the last 60 years.

              And this totally leaves out any Japanese casualties - look at the carnage on Okinawa, just concluded in April: 107,000 soldiers killed and 24,000 sealed in caves or buried by the Japanese themselves; 10,755 captured or surrendered. Civilian losses are hard to estimate, as a lot hid in caves where they were buried by the Japanese. The lowest estimate is 42,000 killed, with another 145,000 wounded.

              And Okinawa wasn't even a home island - the Japanese will to defend the homeland was incredible. The cheerful Japanese slogan that summer was: "One Hundred Million Will Die for the Emperor and Nation". 38 million civilians were enrolled in the Japanese militia program, and training to make massed charges against the American lines at night. The Japanese had been hoarding fuel and planes for a huge wave of suicide attacks, which had been proven quite effective at Okinawa.

              Probably even more serious, the US air forces were less than 2 weeks away from beginning destruction of the Japanese transportation system to prepare for the invasions. This was to hinder troop movements, but would have had an even worse effect, due to the geography of Japan - most of the rice was grown in the north, and the bulk of the population was in the south. The 1945 rice harvest was already known to be bad - and Japanese civillians were *already* on a near starvation diet. Some estimates say that over 10 MILLION civillians would have starved due to problems in transporting the rice that would be available, even if the Japanese had surrendered immediately afterward. Even with the August surrender, rations were extremely low in 45/46, and mass starvation was very narrowly averted.

              So what are the alternatives here? Invasion? Millions of casualties, followed by more millions starving. Blockade? Millions starving. Negotiation? OK, this one is a bit trickier.

              It's the hardest to really dismiss, as *everybody* wishes it had been possible. But for evidence against it, look what actually happened. Before summer 45, the cabinet had still not been able to even articulate their terms, or determine even approximately what to have the few, inept peace feelers communicate. And note that these were only explorations, not coming anywhere NEAR a "surrender attempt". Note too that the US would be extremely skeptical of apparent attempts to "negotiate" from a country that had already pulled diplomatic skulduggery while their sneak attack force was sailing across the Pacific...

              In fact every prior peace feeler was shut down by Tokyo immediately as it was discovered. Finally in summer 45, an envoy was sent to the Russians, with nebulous instructions, and receiving increasingly bizarre telegrams from Tokyo. I'll quote the Wall Street Journal article here:

              "Marshall then learned from the Magic Summaries, just before the Potsdam Conference convened on July 17, 1945, about behind-the-scenes negotiations between Japan and the Soviet Union. From June 3-14, 1945, Koki Hirota, a Japanese envoy with Emperor Hirohito's blessing, had met with the Russian ambassador to Tokyo to propose a new relationship between the two
              countries. Japan proposed to carve up Asia with the USSR. According to the Magic Diplomatic Summaries of July 3, 1945, Hirota told the Russian ambassador: "Japan will increase her naval strength in the future, and that, together with the Russian Army, would make a force unequaled in the world...." The Magic Summaries further revealed that throughout June and July 1945, Japan's militarist leaders were adamantly determined that they would never surrender unconditionally to the British and the Americans."

              Then, even AFTER the first bomb, the cabinet is still deadlocked over surrender. After the SECOND bomb, the cabinet still dithers for days, is convinced only by the personal intervention of the emperor, and then a part of the military even starts a coup to try to overturn the government for THAT! Yeah, sure sounds like they were "ready to surrender" long before that :P

              There was no "telegram from the emperor to the US on July 18th" - either you grossly misread this or the source is total BS. Near that date, Truman read a Magic intercept of the Japanese cabinet's instructions to the Moscow envoy, and it was in no way shape or form "peace at basically any price".

              If they were sooo ready to surrender, then why didn't they respond to the Potsdam demand of July 26th? (This had the loosening of terms to "unconditional surrender of the armed forces" vs the previous Cairo phrasing "unconditional surrender of Japan") Oh, wait, they did, the published response of Premier Suzuki (and he was in the *peace* faction of the cabinet!) was that the Potsdam Declaration was "a thing of no great value", and "We will simply mokusatsu it". The main meaning of mokusatsu is "take no notice of; treat (anything) with silent contempt; ignore".

              US Strategic Bombing Survey "would have surrendered anyway" - gee an Air Force study says that the Air Force was gonna finish winning the war alone. This document was part of the post war jockeying between the branches of the armed forces for funding and influence. It's definitely not a completely unbiased source. Oh, by the way they firebombed Tokyo again the evening of August 9th, after the Nagasaki bomb. *This* was how they planned to continue until Japan surrendered. And 100,000 killed in this firebombing is sooooo much better than 100,000 killed in an atomic bombing exactly how?

              Even if the Japanese intentions had been to genuinely move quickly towards surrender, how long do you want to allow this process to drag on? November? December? Remember Japan is still brutally occupying large amounts of territory with huge populations in China, Indonesia, Dutch East Indies, Manchuria, etc. Thousands of civillians in these countries are dying *each day*. Shortening the war even by a few months arguably saves more civillian lives here alone than lost in the bombings.

              This is the context. Now, at this point, Truman has a shot at ending the war quickly and decisively, using what they think of at the time as basically just a really big conventional bomb. What realistic alternative do you see?

              No argument the a-bombings were terrible. I think only 60 years of hindsight of "eeeevil nuclear weapons" is making them seem more terrible than the alternatives. Because it's just oh so much worse to die in a blast or of eeeeevil radiation, than to starve to death slowly over the course of several months with your belly distended, helplessly watching your family slowly die too. Or from third degree burns over half your body or suffocation in the course of a "normal" firebombing.

              The guys peddling these alternative lines are mainly trying to be controversial to sell books, and/or to push their own agendas. I have read a lot on both sides of this, and reluctantly conclude it was the least horrible of a lot of pretty horrible alternatives.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
                Summary?
                Summary of article: the US is evil because we had no good reason to use the nuclear bomb on Japan.

                I disagree with the article. The nuclear bomb did shorten the war considerably which was a very good thing. I saw on documentary on the History channel last night about secret planes of WW2. Japan and Germany were developping new jet planes that were far superior to the planes the Allies had. If the war had been allowed to continue for another year or two and Japan had begun mass production of its new jet planes, Japan could have turned the tide of WW2 back in its favor. This would have been disastrous.

                Dropping the nuke on Japan was the right thing to do.
                'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
                G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Was dropping the 2nd one necessary?

                  If you think about it, the crucial factor wasn't so much what the Allies did as what HiroHito did - no Emperor to order Japan in surrender, no easy victory.

                  I don't know one way or the other. I certainly wouldn't right off any country as "evil" over one partciular action.

                  Put it another way - there are evil "acts" but no truly evil "countries". Evil "regimes" but not truly evil "peoples".

                  Mind you, I haven't met them all so I could be wrong about that.
                  Last edited by Cruddy; January 31, 2005, 11:23.
                  Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                  "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I disagree with the article. The nuclear bomb did shorten the war considerably which was a very good thing. I saw on documentary on the History channel last night about secret planes of WW2. Japan and Germany were developping new jet planes that were far superior to the planes the Allies had. If the war had been allowed to continue for another year or two and Japan had begun mass production of its new jet planes, Japan could have turned the tide of WW2 back in its favor. This would have been disastrous.
                    This is, I'm afraid, quite bogus. It's true that Germany had developed the ME-262, which was superior to anything the allies could field, but they didn't start producing them until late 1944, at which point they were immaterial, given Allied numerical superiority. Japan, however, was not developing anything better than US planes. Moreover, all of Japan's good pilots were basically dead by the end of 1943, and even had Japan come out with a new line of planes during Okinawa, they would have no-one trained to fly them, and they would have been used as Kamikazis, which had no effect on the course of the war. Also, given the state of infrastructure, mass producing anything advanced would have proved complicated.

                    In response to Jefftest, I do not have enough information to do anything but counter accurate-sounding assertions with more accurate-sounding assertions. But that isn't really the point. The point is that there is a systematic, mass denial that there is any controversy at all. Furthermore, there is an attempt to gloss over any of the consequences of the bomb. Notice the systematic effort to downplay the number of people who died from the bomb. What I found disturbing in my research was not that the bomb was, at least arguably, unncessary, but that as soon as it had been dropped, those in a position of power lied about it to the American public.
                    "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hiroshima rages, Nagasaki prays.

                      The bomb in Hiroshima hit everyone; the bomb in Nagasaki hit the Catholics and the poor.
                      B♭3

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        and to think, if we hadn't waited so long to negotiate peace, perhaps Korea would not be divided today.

                        I'm beginning to think dropping the bomb was a mistake. We should have never done it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Recently, it has come to my attention that there are various myths regarding the pure motives of the United States in WWII...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dissident
                            and to think, if we hadn't waited so long to negotiate peace, perhaps Korea would not be divided today.


                            Nah. The U.S. had no chance to occupy Korea immediately. The only real hope for a united Korea lay in the U.S. staying out of the country, as in the wake of the Japanese collapse, a revolution rolled across the peninsula.
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's good that our leaders had at least *some* doubts, it would take a real head case to make a decision like that without having second thoughts. But you can easily see where expressing these publicly can lead - revisionist "historians" and other activists with an agenda go through and cherry pick the quotes they like, and weave them into a very misleading tapestry.

                              And it's good to have some controversy - but in the right time and place, and where each side can get a fair say. The Enola Gay exhibit in the National Air and Space Museum was not the place for a biased display, out of context of the totality of the war, and slanted heavily towards one point of view.

                              By law "The national air and space museum shall memorialize the national development of aviation and space flight; collect, preserve, and display aeronautical and space flight equipment of historical interest and significance; serve as a repository for scientific equipment and data pertaining to the development of aviation and space flight; and provide educational material for the historical study of aviation and space flight."

                              This was broadened a bit in 1961 by a congressional decree, but the primary purpose of the museum is to display aircraft. SOME indication of the consequences of use, and portrayal of historic controversies is not out of place. But I almost totally sympathize with the Air Force Association. You've steeped yourself in the revisionists side, I challenge you to read the Air Force Association's side: http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/

                              The restored aircraft will be there all right, the front fifty-six feet of it, anyway. The rest of the gallery space is allotted to a program about the atomic bomb. The presentation is designed for shock effect. The exhibition plan notes that parents might find some parts unsuitable for viewing by their children.

                              For the "emotional center" of the exhibit, the curators are collecting burnt watches and broken wall clocks, photos of victims -- which will be enlarged to life size -- as well as melted and broken religious objects. One display is a schoolgirl's lunch box with remains of peas and rice reduced to carbon. To ensure that nobody misses the point, "where possible, photos of the persons who owned or wore these artifacts would be used to show that real people stood behind the artifacts." Survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will recall the horror in their own words.
                              ---
                              The exhibition plan the museum was following as recently as November picked up the story of the war in 1945 as the end approached. It depicted the Japanese in a desperate defense of their home islands, saying little about what had made such a defense necessary. US conduct of the war was depicted as brutal, vindictive, and racially motivated.
                              and
                              Examination of the Smithsonian's own script, along with other factors we have reported, substantiate our belief that:

                              The exhibition as planned lacks balance and historical context.

                              It is designed to play on emotions.

                              It is part of a pattern in which the Smithsonian depicts US military airpower in a negative way.

                              Please note that the January 12 Smithsonian script analyzed here is the one incorporating what we described in our report as "major concessions to balance" when compared with previous exhibition plans by the museum.

                              Content analysis:

                              49 Photos of Japanese casualties.
                              3 Photos of American casualties.

                              5 Photos of Japanese military members in military role.
                              65 Photos of American military members in military role.

                              302 Total text pages in script.
                              4 Text pages with references to Japanese atrocities.
                              66 Text pages on Hiroshima/Nagasaki "ground zero."
                              13 Text pages on Japanese casualties, suffering, damage from earlier B-29 missions.

                              25 "Ground Zero" photos featuring women, children, mutilated religious objects.
                              13 "Ground Zero" artifacts related to women, children, religion.

                              2 Text pages on Japan's search for a diplomatic solution.
                              4 Text pages on US avoidance of a diplomatic solution.

                              1 Aggressive, anti-American statements by Japanese.
                              10 Aggressive, anti-Japanese statements by Americans

                              2 pages Text references to US internment of Japanese.
                              1 paragraph Text references to Japanese treatment of US POWs.
                              and

                              What rankled the revisionists is that the Post said in a January 1995 editorial that early drafts of the Enola Gay script were "incredibly propagandistic and intellectually shabby" and had "a tendentiously antinuclear and anti-American tone." The Post also said the curators had repeatedly made things worse by their "misplaced condescension and refusal to see the criticisms of bias as anything but the carping of the insufficiently sophisticated."

                              In February, another Post editorial added: "It is important to be clear about what happened at the Smithsonian. It is not, as some have it, that benighted advocates of a special-interest or right-wing point of view brought political power to bear to crush and distort the historical truth. Quite the contrary. Narrow-minded representatives of a special-interest and revisionist point of view attempted to use their inside track to appropriate and hollow out a historical event that large numbers of Americans alive at that time and engaged in the war had witnessed and understood in a very different -- and authentic -- way."
                              That was referring to the Washington Post, a bastion of right-wing thought (<<--- sarcasm alert for foreign readers. The Post is quite liberal.)
                              Last edited by jefftest; January 31, 2005, 15:54.

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