Why has Capitalism failed to produce optimal value everywhere?

[Flubber]

On fair deals


I think deals freely entered into without duress or misrepresentation between competent parties are fine. I don't know if I want to use the word "fair" because that could get into a 1000 post argument over what "fair" means. lets just say that I like a system where people have the freedom to make their own deals, whether it be to decide how much to pay for a house or how much to sell their labor for. I believe in the idea of capacity to contract and that people should be able to make and be bound by such deals (subject to standards mandated by legislation)

[Kidlicious]

Imagine that instead of a capitalist system with an unequal distribution of income the game is poker. You can either play poker or starve to death, so you play of course. The only problem is that you only have $5 and your opponent has $500 dollars. You argree to play. Does that make it fair? Of course not, and you can write all the 1000 word essays you want, but you can't convince a reasonable person that it's fair.

[Drogue]

Who's a reasonable person? If you mean the majority, they vote capitalist. If you mean legally, you need a hell of a stronger argument than that. If you mean anything else, well, I suppose it's a bit of a nonsense word anyway. Reasonable depends on who you're talking to. Fez might think Franco was reasonable, Floyd that letting someone starve to death because they couldn't afford to eat was reasonable, or one of the commies that forced reappropriation of wealth was. I'm betting the other two would disagree that each was reasonable.

[Kidlicious]

reasonable to me is a theoretical intelligent unbiased person.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious
reasonable to me is a theoretical intelligent unbiased person.

That pretty much rules out everyone.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Kidicious
No. People who steal are criminals. You can be self-interested and operate within the law.

People who only care about their self-interest don't care about the law, as long as breaking it does not subject them to punishment.

Tell me again why you think two is not in your self-interest.

I never said that. I said that my stance did not amount to caring only about my self-interest.

You told me that I was automatically wrong because I disagreed with you about fair deals.

Where did I say that?


As regards reasonable opinions of unbiased intelligent people such don't exist.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


That pretty much rules out everyone.

Yeah it does. No one can be totally unbiased. The best we can do is try. Sometimes it's hard.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Imagine that instead of a capitalist system with an unequal distribution of income the game is poker. You can either play poker or starve to death, so you play of course. The only problem is that you only have $5 and your opponent has $500 dollars. You argree to play. Does that make it fair? Of course not, and you can write all the 1000 word essays you want, but you can't convince a reasonable person that it's fair.

1. Why do you always make your example that the worker can do x "or starve to death"?? Thats not the case and you know it. People do have choices. They might not always be as appealing as you might like but choices and options do exist. You may feel sad that you can't get paid well to pontificate about Marx but that does not in any way make this unfair.

2. I avoided the "fair" word in the previous post since it is a term that you and I would fundamentally disagree about. from what I have read, you think of things like interest , or rent or profit as "unfair" while I have no problem with them. They can be abused and perhaps in individual cases there can be unfairness but it is not the usual case.

3. Read better. I never said anyhting about 1000 word essays. I merely indicated that I avoided the word "fair" to hopefully avoid a 1000 post definitional debate which ends up being about nothing at all.

4. In your poker game you take your 5 bucks and buy enough food to last for a couple of days- (2 lb bag of carrots, maybe some pasta etc)-- oh and offer to act as dealer for the game and make some bucks and for the right to eat the pretzals and beer nuts.

[Kidlicious]

Flubber,

Why do I have to explain simple things to you over and over again.

You can either work in the system and accept an unfair deal or you can die. That is your choice. I don't feel any need to keep explaining that.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Flubber,

Why do I have to explain simple things to you over and over again.

Because your explanations only too often make no sense or fail to explain what was asked.

[Drogue]

Or because he didn't explain it. Flubber's point was whether or not you consider it fair doesn't matter, what does is whether it's acceptable or not. IMHO, any deal not made under duress is acceptable.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Kidicious
reasonable to me is a theoretical intelligent unbiased person.

And you biad towards communism therefore rules you out? Moreover, I'd consider your definition of reasonable to be unreasonable.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Drogue
Or because he didn't explain it. Flubber's point was whether or not you consider it fair doesn't matter, what does is whether it's acceptable or not. IMHO, any deal not made under duress is acceptable.

Duress is extreme. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about having to take a deal where the other person benefits more than you do because they have more negotiating power.

[Drogue]

So every deal should have enforced equal power? For instance, a child saying "I want that" in a toy shop, when the alternative is fit of crying, is morally wrong, because the child has more bargaining power than the parent?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Drogue

And you biad towards communism therefore rules you out? Moreover, I'd consider your definition of reasonable to be unreasonable.

Actually, I'm a white male. My father is a college graduate, and my mom comes from a somewhat wealthy family. I, myself, have one degree, a teaching credential, and I'm half way to getting another degree in Accounting. Accountants are starting out with pay as high as 50k these days. There is a family trust that I stand to inheret part of.

In short, my bias is not towards communism. Just the opposite. Many of my attitudes come from my emotions, and those are the ones I have to fight against, and be rational.