Creationists PWNED

[trev]

You forgot to comment wobble and tilt.

Under my scenario, todays wobble and tilt would not be a problem, so an assumption of unchanged wobble and tilt is reasonable, but most values of these except for the most extreme values probably would work

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by trev

Under my scenario, todays wobble and tilt would not be a problem, so an assumption of unchanged wobble and tilt is reasonable, but most values of these except for the most extreme values probably would work

Sorry, it would totally ruin your model if they existed before and if they was created during a flood, the planet would end up inhabitable due to the damages.

[trev]

Sorry, it would totally ruin your model if they existed before and if they was created during a flood, the planet would end up inhabitable due to the damages.

Why would it ruin my model, I have tried to provide reasoning for my statements, rather than a flat rejection, please provide at least that. Guess what, the planet WAS uninhabitable during the flood, a little more damage would not make much difference.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by trev
As the climate had been constant for a long period of time prior to the flood, all species were adapted to that climate. This makes commonsense. After the flood, all life that remained were forced to adapt to the changed and variable climate. Some of these changes resulted in fish, animals that adapted to much colder climate and seas in the polar regions and these adaptions have made them now unable to survive in warmer conditions. But this is as a result of adaptions since Noahs flood, at the time of the flood, they were all adapted to warmer conditions.

I take it you agree with evolution then.

[trev]

I take it you agree with evolution then.

No, I agree with the ability of animals, plants etc to adapt to new situations, but not to change into totally new life. The bible states that life could reproduce after its 'kind', the precise definition of 'kind' is of course impossible to know. But I would suggest that bears are a 'kind' and after the flood, some bears adapted to the tropics and became the Sumatran bear species, others adapted to the polar regions and became polar bear species, others grizzly bears etc. But they are all still bears. Evolution takes the issue of adaptability and says there is a possiblility bears can mutate to become a totally new family of animals. I disagree with that supposition and therefore disagree with evolution. In any event with only approx 6000 years since creation, 4000+years since Noah's flood there is limitations on the extent of adaptability that has had time to occur.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by trev

Why would it ruin my model, I have tried to provide reasoning for my statements, rather than a flat rejection, please provide at least that. Guess what, the planet WAS uninhabitable during the flood, a little more damage would not make much difference.

Simply because there would be no energy balance. No matter how you set up your model, there will always be a grater energy input in the equatorial areas than in the arctic - especially if they are deprived from energy input every half year.

Of course the planet would be uninhabitable if such a flood had ever ocurred, but i'm talking about the period after such a flood. And yes, you are right, who wants to distinct between total destruction and total plus destruction.

[GePap]

And yet Trev every single bit of physical data states that the Earth is much older than 6000 years. Its nice to know you find a way to ignore every single shred of evidence there is about the great age of the planet. I marvel at your ability to not think about so much.

[beingofone]

Whaleboy

And where is the evidence of their incarceration? Give me numbers.

The Leidan papri at the Tel-El-Amarna find for one. There are no numbers on how many, just many new records of Hebrew and Semite slaves.

Boris Godunov

There's not even a need to explain these as such. There is absolutely zero evidence from Egyptian history that any of the disasterous events of Exodus happened. You would think an event as traumatic as the death of all the firstborn children (way to go, ye merciful Yahweh...) would be in their history somewhere. But it isn't.

from Papyrus Ipuwer
Papyrus 2:2- The river is blood
Ex. 7:20- The river was turned to blood

Papyrus 2:6- blood is everywhere
Ex. 7:21- blood through the land of Egypt

Papyrus 2:10- gates , columns, and walls are consumed by fire
Ex. 9:23-24 and the fire ran along the ground

Papyrus 4:14- trees are destroyed
Ex 9:25- and the hail brake every tree in the field

Papyrus- 9:11 and the land is no light
Ex. 10:22- and Moses extended his hand and there was darkness

Papyrus 2:13- he who places his brother in the ground is everywhere
Ex. 12:30- for there was not a house where there was not one dead


Immortal Wombat

Hold on, you can't have the Bible predicting and fulfilling its own prophecies. That's like saying all the prophecies in the Harry Potter saga have come true. Name three externally verifyable prophecies.

That is apples and oranges, The scripture was written by 40 authors over 1500 years not just one author in one lifetime.

Gen. 17:4. As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

The Jewish and Arab nations and races still exist to this day.

Hosea 9: 16. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
17. My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

The Jewish people are still scattered among the nations.

Ezekial 26: 3. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
5. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
6. And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Alexander the Great fulfilled this prophecy. And fishermen still spread their nets on this ancient site to this day.

[beingofone]

Urban Ranger

God's spirit? Where in the bible does it say that YHWH has a spirit?

1st chapter of Genesis to Revelation and almost every book in between.

Suppose we find evidence of life on Mars tomorrow and on Titan the day after that. Suddenly life would no longer be "miraculous," no?

Would not change the issue at all.

No. Let me explain this in greater detail. You can have one of the two mutually exclusive position with regards to all baseless assertions b1, b2, b3...bm

G: Accept them blindly until proven otherwise
S: Reject them until proven otherwise

I exist - ergo I base my assertion on my reality which defies definition.

No. You maybe thinking about the ToE (Theory of Everything), however we don't have any such thing.

I said (deals with) not the definition of.

Let me expain in greater detail how you are communicating by H.L. Mencken`s theory of human relations.
Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel and ignorant of any such subject.

quote:
Originally posted by trev
The bible teaches of a soul and spirit and the fact that at death that soul/spirit leaves the body to travel to heaven/hell/sheol/abode of the dead etc. It also records several instances of out of body experiences (Paul going to third heaven,Ezekials visions,St Johns visions in revelations etc)

That's nice. How does that different from Middle Earth or the Fogotten Realms?

The fact that these were real people (ie.not imaginary) that have been studied by very bright people for thousands of years.





Last Conformist

(Incidentally, Einstein did away with the notion of time and space as a rigid coordinate system in 1905. The relativity of space of time to the observer is experimental fact since the better part of a century. I can only conclude you're totally clueless wrt physics.)

Whaleboy

UR: I can't believe he said it either. How can we take someone seriously if they attempt to talk about cosmology, with such a blatently wrong understanding of basic special relativity?

Urban Ranger

No and no.

Relativity treats time and space as part of a four diminsional system, called spacetime. However spacetime is not rigid.


Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not state that it is impossible to place any object in this coordinate system with arbitrary precision. It merely states that one cannot measure position and momentum with arbitrary precision at the same time.

I know spacetime is not rigid - read my post with some honesty.
The word (treats) is especially helpful used in context.
Some of you simply obfuscate the issue.

Example : discussing ballistics
Someone - the bullet is propelled by internal pressure.
You - no that is completely wrong, the bullet is propelled by internal combustion. Or whatever

If the goal of any discussion is simply to "win the argument".
Here I give it to you - you won, I can`t beat you.

[beingofone]

Immortal Wombat

So you conceded the Bible doesn't actually explain out-of-body experiences then?

Yup it just states it as a fact.

Thankyou. I'm afraid I don't understand your response though.

Last Conformist

It's extremely unclear what you're trying to say here, but if you are saying that, yes, you equate God with infinity, I am forced to conclude you are neither Christian nor sane.

How did Einstein sit at his desk with a pencil and paper and explore the entire universe? How is that possible with no lab equipment?



There is only one singularity that exists in reality symbolized by the number zero, do you know what that is?
Your esoteric counsciousness, which is the only reality you have ever or will be aware of.

Perhaps the answer to the question is so easy a child understands it and "adults" overcomplicate it. Its so easy it becomes hard.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by beingofone
from Papyrus Ipuwer

Wishful thinking.

http://www.talkreason.org/PrinterFriendly.cfm?article=/articles/letter1.cfm

This has all been about the Israelites' arrival in Egypt, but the picture is simply disheartening about their exodus from there. No historical source mentions a large Israelite slave population in Egypt, nor any distinct ethnical group subjected to slavery there in the second half of the 2nd millennium BCE. The city of Ramses, which, according to Exodus 1:11, the Israelites built in Egyptian captivity, appears in fact to be built during the reign of Ramesses II in the 13th century BCE (The Bible Unearthed, p. 59) -- decades after the date of Exodus according to our tradition. No historical source tells us of the ten great and awesome plagues reported in the Torah. Much less significant events are thoroughly described, yet these major catastrophes rate not a single mention, not only in Egyptian sources (maybe the Egyptians were traumatized enough to want to forget the plagues), but also in all the historical sources of the ancient Near East. And though some very optimistic people suggest that the ancient Egyptian Papyrus Ipuwer is a description of the Exodus from the Egyptian point of view, this view seems implausible. The papyrus (which can be found in English translation in Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature: a Book of Readings, v. 1, pp. 149-163) is in fact the admonition of an Egyptian sage, describing certain natural and social calamities. Some Egyptologists hold that the papyrus is written in an allegorical manner and has no relation to any historical events whatsoever.

The papyrus does not provide even the slightest hint about most of the Ten Plagues (including the final and the crucial one -- the plague of the firstborns), nor is there any mention of Hebrews, Israelites, Moses, Aaron, mass exodus from Egypt or anything of that kind. The only resemblance it bears to the book of Exodus is the phrase "Lo, the river is blood" (Ipuwer 2:10). A few lines earlier the papyrus explains also the source of this blood, "There's blood everywhere, no shortage of dead... Lo, many dead are buried in the river" (Ipuwer 2:5) -- so it speaks not of a plague of blood, but of many bleeding dead bodies thrown into the river. The papyrus is dated by Egyptologists to the time of the 10th-12th dynasties of Egypt (2133-1786 BCE) -- hundreds of years before the Exodus is reported to have taken place. Of course, our knowledge of ancient Egyptian chronology is not perfect, and imprecision of a few decades is quite possible, but a discrepancy of several centuries is too much -- in short, Papyrus Ipuwer may be related to almost anything but the Exodus from Egypt, and in searching for historical corroboration of the Exodus narrative this papyrus offers no real help.

There no mention in any of the Near Eastern sources of a total rout of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea waters, which is particularly problematic since the Torah tells us that this event made a great impression on the other nations: "The peoples have heard, they tremble; anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia. Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed; the leaders of Moab, trembling grips them; all the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away" (Exodus 15:14-15).

Moreover, were the Egyptian army indeed crushed, the not-so-peaceful neighbors of Egypt -- the Babylonians and the Hittites -- would have immediately invaded the powerless empire. At the end of the 14th-beginning of the 13th centuries BCE Egypt and the Hittite empire were at a state of constant war; the ten plagues and the Exodus would have quickly led to a Hittite invasion and conquest of the ruined Egypt, especially since according to the Torah the Egyptian army wasn't able to recover for at least 40 years (see Deuteronomy 11:4 and Nachmanides's commentary on it). But no such invasion ever happened, and after almost four decades of indecisive war a peace treaty and a mutual defense pact were signed between Egypt and the Hittite empire (see Encyclopaedia Britannica, Hittite).

Egyptian borders in that period were well guarded and watched. Papyri Anastasi (from the end of the 13th century BCE) show that neither Egyptians nor foreigners could enter Egypt without special permission of the authorities, and each border crossing is well documented. Papyrus Anastasi V goes so far as telling in minute detail about two slaves from the royal residence of Pi-Ramesses who managed to flee from Egypt, about their path, the point they crossed the border, and the measures taken to pursue them and to return them to their masters (see A. Malamat, "Let My People Go and Go and Go and Go," Biblical Archaeology Review, January/February 1998, p. 65). Were 2.5 million ex-slaves to leave Egypt, it would most certainly be documented, and yet there is not a single mention in all the Egyptian documents of such a massive exodus. (Of course, only a fraction of the documents describing fleeing of slaves from Egypt came down to us, and therefore minor exoduses, of which we have no evidence nowadays, could really have happened, but that an escape of 2.5 million people -- almost the whole country's population -- would leave no evidence which would make it down to our time seems quite improbable.)

And that's from a Rabbi, bubbeleh.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Odin
Circular reasoning alert!

It's more fundamental than that.

Originally, trev cited memory as something science cannot explain. Now that he's proven wrong, he back padelled to claimed that the complexity of memory is too complicated to have evolved naturally.

This just says he doesn't have a position, he just tries to muddle and confuse.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by beingofone
1st chapter of Genesis to Revelation and almost every book in between.

If you are referring to the Holy Spirit, there's nowhere in the bible that says its "YHWH's spirit."

Originally posted by beingofone
Would not change the issue at all.

On the contrary. Finding life elsewhere makes mincemeat out of your assumption.

Originally posted by beingofone
I exist - ergo I base my assertion on my reality which defies definition.

If you are positing that your reality is so different from the rest of us, that basic logic doesn't work in yours - which appears to be the case the way you are going - there's no basis for any discussion at all.

Originally posted by beingofone
I said (deals with) not the definition of.

Let me expain in greater detail how you are communicating by H.L. Mencken`s theory of human relations.
Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel and ignorant of any such subject.

Precisely. You are a scoundrel who is ignorant of Quantum Physics Thank you for the honest admission.

Originally posted by beingofone
The fact that these were real people (ie.not imaginary) that have been studied by very bright people for thousands of years.

I am not sure who these "very bright people" you are talking about, but apparently they weren't conducting any rigorious scientific inquiries.

Originally posted by beingofone
I know spacetime is not rigid - read my post with some honesty.

The word (treats) is especially helpful used in context.
Some of you simply obfuscate the issue.

Quantum physics does not deal with spacetime, that's 101 knowledge.

Please stick to something you know about, instead of trying to look impressive by jumbling scientific terms haphazardly.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by beingofone
from Papyrus Ipuwer
Papyrus 2:2- The river is blood
Ex. 7:20- The river was turned to blood

Papyrus 2:6- blood is everywhere
Ex. 7:21- blood through the land of Egypt

Papyrus 2:10- gates , columns, and walls are consumed by fire
Ex. 9:23-24 and the fire ran along the ground

Papyrus 4:14- trees are destroyed
Ex 9:25- and the hail brake every tree in the field

Papyrus- 9:11 and the land is no light
Ex. 10:22- and Moses extended his hand and there was darkness

Papyrus 2:13- he who places his brother in the ground is everywhere
Ex. 12:30- for there was not a house where there was not one dead

Sounds like the result of a volcano fallout to me, especially if you add the pillar cloud and pillar fire that guided Moses out of Egypt.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by trev

No, I agree with the ability of animals, plants etc to adapt to new situations, but not to change into totally new life. The bible states that life could reproduce after its 'kind', the precise definition of 'kind' is of course impossible to know. But I would suggest that bears are a 'kind' and after the flood, some bears adapted to the tropics and became the Sumatran bear species, others adapted to the polar regions and became polar bear species, others grizzly bears etc. But they are all still bears. Evolution takes the issue of adaptability and says there is a possiblility bears can mutate to become a totally new family of animals. I disagree with that supposition and therefore disagree with evolution. In any event with only approx 6000 years since creation, 4000+years since Noah's flood there is limitations on the extent of adaptability that has had time to occur.

So, if you were correct,
it would be possible to take some tropical fish,
put them into an aquarium and then slowly but steadily (maybe within a year) lower the watertemperatures from maybe 30 °C to 10 °C and they would adapt to it.
Likewise it would be possible for all other animals to slowly alter certain variables within their habitat and they would adapt to it (whithin the lifespan of the animals).

Then again the question arises, what happened to the dinosaurs and Trilobites and certain other species where we to date find only fossils (but no living relatives remain)?
After all they should survive every change of their climate and therefore shouldn´t get extinct.