Creationists PWNED

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by BeBro
So you rather meant, something which is not proveable does not exist? That's a difference.

That's what I meant, if not what I said. Mea culpa.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


The same could be said of unicorns. Why not believe they exist?

There are fairies, why not unicorns.

[chequita guevara]

I gotta horn that looks for maidens.

[Japher]

[trev]

I posed a few questions before I went to bed last night and have waited to see if anyone could provide an answer. A quick read through subsequent posts have revealed no answers. I will provide some answers myself for the benefit of thinking rational people

How can 'out of body' experiences be explained? ( in particular when the patient views the operation from above the operating table as has happened many times)

These experiences show that there is more to a person than a body and brain. When close to death a part of the person can leave the body. This part can see, can hear, can process information. I call this part the persons soul/spirit which is normally held by unknown forces to the body, but when the body is weak that attachment can be broken and it separates from the body. As it appears unaffected in its vitality by the near death experience it is probably eternal in existence and upon death, I believe God takes it to its destination. Please think about where you want God to take your soul to on your death: Heaven or hell.

How can twins feel the pain of the other twin when hundreds of miles apart and unaware of the event causing the pain?

This is BS. It doesn't exist. It's purely fictional.

I posed this question because a family member has experienced this very situation twice to my knowledge, possibly more. The event involved my mother who is a twin. While suffering labour pains, her twin brother who although aware of the pregnancy, being 300 miles away was unaware of the labour was taken to doctors and hospital to try and diagnose intense pains he was suffering. They were not diagnosed but ceased about the time of birth when of the labour pains ceased. This occurred twice, first pregnancy ovedue by one week, 2nd 6 weeks early, so exact timing of labour pains could not have been anticipated. There is a 'connection' that forms between souls/spirits which spend time together in extremely close proximity ie in the womb as is the case with twins. This connection is also between mothers and their children, hence the motherly instincts and the 'feeling' of adopted children that they are missing something. This connection probably involves forces which have not yet been discovered by science. I believe the same connection is established between God and those human beings who pray to him and obey him and through this connection we can sense the will of God for our lives.

How can migratory birds travel most of the length of the globe with the young travelling at a separate time to the adults as happens with some species?

The same or similar connection explained above allows the young birds to use guidance given by the adult birds despite the distance between them for their migratory moves.

What is memory?

My opinion is that there is more to memory than an arrangement of chemicals in a brain,as that arrangement of chemicals cannot explain the detailed images we as humans can recall of our past. How does the brain know how to intepret these arrangements as the image it is? I think it is much more likely that the brain establishes links to the past events through which it can recall the image as requested. The quality of the links deteriorate with time, which is why memory deteriorates with time.

I know scoffers will laugh at the suggestion of unknown forces, links between closely related people, people and past events, links between God and humans, but the presence of these forces best explain some psychic abilities as well (although these in some cases are assisted by evil spirits), miracles of healing that occur sometimes, prophecies of the future that have proved to be true etc. These forces can carry information and an unmeasurable (by current technology) form of energy across space and across time. God's angels make use of these forces to assist humans from time to time as God commands them. My belief is that God has created a universe of order that functions according to a set of rules, some of which we know, some of which we do not. But all his created beings can only act within those rules abd that order including angelic and demonic beings. It is just that we as humans are currently unaware of some of the forces and maybe dimensions present in the universe because of a lack of ability to directly sense or measure these forces. But an analysis of the unexplainable would imply that something of this type is necessary to fully explain everything that happens in this universe we exist in.
It is my recognition through thought processes that things can only be explained through the existence of God, and that of all books etc, only the bible is credible in the answers it gives that has given me an unshakeable faith in God, a faith that allows me to believe everything in the bible, simply because in my life experiences much of it has been proven correct, and therefore I will believe the rest by faith, knowing that eventually all will be understood, even those sections that seem to conflict with current scientific understanding, ie the creation story

[MRT144]

evil spirits! hahahhaa

/me points to the door

[Japher]

Attributing unknown forces to entity you chose to call God does not make him exist.

People believed the earth was flat and that you could sail to ends of the earth, and that there you would find god or monsters or whatever...

Guess what, despite the rantings of some backwoods baffoons the world is quite round.

[BlackCat]

My opinion is that there is more to memory than an arrangement of chemicals in a brain,as that arrangement of chemicals cannot explain the detailed images we as humans can recall of our past. How does the brain know how to intepret these arrangements as the image it is? I think it is much more likely that the brain establishes links to the past events through which it can recall the image as requested. The quality of the links deteriorate with time, which is why memory deteriorates with time.

If there should exist such a link, how comes then that eyewitnesses are the most unreliable evidence you can get wether its an accident or a crime ? If you have seven witnesses you probably also have seven different stories about what happend which there shouldn't if your "direct link" existed.

And no, time deteoriation isn't an issue - you can ask them an hour after the incident and the stories differ.

[Last Conformist]

I've still to hear of a good reason to believe that out-of-body experiences aren't a peculiar kind of hallucinations.

Nor credible Creationist responses to any of the points raised in Boris' article. Or even a reason to believe that the author(s) of Genesis thought that there were no mountains in antediluvian times.

[trev]

I've still to hear of a good reason to believe that out-of-body experiences aren't a peculiar kind of hallucinations.

It is unlikely to be a hallucination as those who have experienced such experienced often give detailed accounts of the actions of surgeons and nurses from a perspective that is above the operating table or other pespective that is obviously not from the eyes of the patient, accounts that are accurate. A hallucination could not result in this detailed accurate account and therefore attributing these reports to a soul/spirit leaving the body is much more likely, even if our technology cannot observe, or record such an event. The fact that we cannot observe such a thing happening with our instruments does not mean it doesn't exist, in fact a rational, thinking person generally comes to the conclusion that this is the most logical solution, even if unprovable. Certainly science despite investigating these reports for several decades now can come to no better conclusion.

[Chemical Ollie]

You still haven't pointed to the Bible explanations for those questions (memory, birds, twins, etc).

[trev]

Nor credible Creationist responses to any of the points raised in Boris' article. Or even a reason to believe that the author(s) of Genesis thought that there were no mountains in antediluvian times.

There are many things in the fossil record, sedimentary rock record etc which with todays knowledge cannot be adequately explained by EITHER evolution OR creation. However I am a thinking person and therefore I try to make best sense of the facts given in the context of known, proven physical laws. My thinking processes tell me that 'no rainbow prior to flood' means 'no rain prior to flood' as there is a connection by known physical laws between the two. Furthermore my thinking processes tell me that 'no rain means no uplift of air masses' and as mountains usually result in the uplift of air masses and consequent rain, this seems to preclude the presence of mountains. However the other possibility which is also viable I suppose is that the movement of air masses in the preflood world was so slow that any uplift associated with mountains only produced dew/mist/fog, not rain. I personally prefer the lack of high mountains theory but can accept that the other is possible also

[Giancarlo]

That's BS, trev and you know it. Certainly evolution does not explain everything, but it is by far the most logical theory out there and unlike creationism, it actually has evidence and facts. Evolution has substantial evidence backing it. Furthermore, have you provided any scientific facts behind your statements? I believe not. There was no global flood to begin with.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by trev
These experiences show that there is more to a person than a body and brain. When close to death a part of the person can leave the body. This part can see, can hear, can process information. I call this part the persons soul/spirit which is normally held by unknown forces to the body, but when the body is weak that attachment can be broken and it separates from the body. As it appears unaffected in its vitality by the near death experience it is probably eternal in existence and upon death, I believe God takes it to its destination. Please think about where you want God to take your soul to on your death: Heaven or hell.

If the soul is disconnected from the body, (and therefore the eyes), how does it see? Surely a discorporeal experience would be one of utter sensory deprivation?

If you are on the point of claiming that the soul can sense without the need for organs, then why hae them in the first place, and wherefore blind people?

[trev]

You still haven't pointed to the Bible explanations for those questions (memory, birds, twins, etc).

True, the bible as a book is designed to lead people to God, not explain science. However as God is truth, every thing that is written in the Bible will not contradict the physical laws of the universe, known or unknown. The bible teaches of a soul and spirit and the fact that at death that soul/spirit leaves the body to travel to heaven/hell/sheol/abode of the dead etc. It also records several instances of out of body experiences (Paul going to third heaven,Ezekials visions,St Johns visions in revelations etc), so I am extrapolating from known biblical events to explain out of body experiences on the operating table, a reasonable process. Also the bible clearly teaches that our spirits can link up with God's spirit and I am extrapolating the possible forces involved in this process to offer plausible explainations for the twin phenonema, migratory bird phenonema etc. A belief in God and a belief in the bible does not prevent us from using rational thinking and thought processes to explain phenonema not directly explained by the bible, but still within the context of biblical teaching.