Declaration of War

[MarkG]

aeturneus,

you have a strange way of seeing things. whatever does not suit how you played is somehow an unbalancing factor in the game. it was US that CAPTURED foor axice, COLONIZED it and LOADED it with fuel ore. nothing was given to us or stolen from someone else. everything we had was EARNED by us.

[aeturneus]

wait. are you saying that foor axice didn't have a citadel when you captured it? and was that citadel not more advanced than anything you or anyone else in the game had? and didn't you therefore get that citadel to level five before you or anyone else even had any other planets developed to level 4?

Regardless, I was making an entirely different point:

There is a problem in the game if a good corporation with no real opposition still can't possibly hope to make enough money in a month to capture a planet that is now undefended and floating in space. The problem is that it is impossible to make enough money in the game for offence to be even remotely viable.

As far as I can tell from other tradewars forums, this is a highly anomalous situation. It is certainly not the way the game was designed - if level fives are technically impregnable, why even bother creating a level 6 citadel? If a person can't make enough to fill an interdictor cruiser in a year, why even bother putting the ship in the game?

Its as if you can build a phalanx in one turn and a legion in 20. Totally unbalanced.

There are a few different solutions:

Increase the port regen rate to a reasonable level so that planet farming becomes a viable option

Have a more profitable rob/steal ratio so that evils can make enough money to be viable

Give everyone more turns so that they can trade more

Make the universe bigger so there are more ports to trade at

[MarkG]

Originally posted by aeturneus
wait. are you saying that foor axice didn't have a citadel when you captured it?

we CAPTURED it. end of story.
anything it may had was something that we EARNED not STOLE from someone in the game...

[Urban Ranger]

I don't see how you can have precise Quasar Cannon calculations, since the level each one operates at is totally adjustable. Maybe it's set at 2%, or 3%, or 5%. You don't know this, so you can't make any calculations.

I don't see anything wrong with a L5 Citadel since you too can build one. How is that an anormaly? Just because somebody pours resources into building one and you don't, it's not your right to complain.

I have no problems with trading either. As a matter of fact there are huge number of ports in the universe. I just ran into an unused port yesterday. That tells you something.

[burbel]

Well, not to stir the pot, but Apolyton I, a planet that we created and started working with, should be up to it's level 5 citadel either today or tomorrow. Since fuel ore production on it is better than Foor Axice, as it Organics and fighter production, that planet should be harder to take than Foor Axice (if we were able to move the planetary shields as I had intended).

Yes, Foor Axice gave us an advantage. But it's not that huge; we should have hit our first level 5 today, and, I think, our 3rd or fourth level 4.

Since Foor Axice was a class M (Earth) planet, it really wouldn't be worth us using now, except as an equipment farm.

[aeturneus]

Originally posted by MarkG
we CAPTURED it. end of story.
anything it may had was something that we EARNED not STOLE from someone in the game...

Ok you, you captured it. Unfortunately, this was an ADVANTAGE because there were no other Foor Axice's in the game to capture.

I don't see how you can have precise Quasar Cannon calculations, since the level each one operates at is totally adjustable. Maybe it's set at 2%, or 3%, or 5%. You don't know this, so you can't make any calculations.

I flew a ship into that sector twice, and was able to calculate the percentage the quasar cannon was set to from the difference in battle points taken. Pretty basic math if you ask me. BTW the level is 5%

I don't see anything wrong with a L5 Citadel since you too can build one. How is that an anormaly? Just because somebody pours resources into building one and you don't, it's not your right to complain.

S>A will also have a level 5 citadel quite shortly. My point is not that level fives are unfair, but that the game is UNBALANCED. It is unbalanced because the game settings are quite strange, to be frank. Check some of the other tournament games and see if they play with this few turns, with such a low port regen rate (doesn't matter how many ports there are if the port you have upgraded to sell organics to with about 1.5 million credits takes 7 days to replenish, instead of the normal 3-4)

I have no problems with trading either. As a matter of fact there are huge number of ports in the universe. I just ran into an unused port yesterday. That tells you something.

Well, good for you. But, with just 400 turns, you will NEVER make enough trading to take a planet like Foor Axice. So, the game is unbalanced because offense is technically impossible... if we all sit behind our giant lev. 5 citadels and just keep trading and selling organics and making figs, what is the FUN in that? Nobody can be attacked, nobody captured, nobody has to worry about defense very much, as long as you have enough colonists and the minimum of shields.

Comprenez-vous?

[aeturneus]

A note: why would you want to play a game with absolutely no competition? Because... that is what this game is as soon as most corps have level fives. I sure don't want to play a game like that, and if it ends up that way after all, I will quit the game... not to say that it might not suit some people who are afraid of competition or dislike having to actually plan strategically and defend themselves, just that those are the things I like to do, and without them the game won't be any fun - for me. Think about it... would you really enjoy it?

[Solarwind]

I sure wouldn't enjoy it, with me about to start my first planet in a little while and everybody else with huge bases already. I say that we NEED more turns, like a thousand or so.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by aeturneus
I flew a ship into that sector twice, and was able to calculate the percentage the quasar cannon was set to from the difference in battle points taken. Pretty basic math if you ask me. BTW the level is 5%

If the damage is deterministic, it will be the same both times. If it's random, how can you calculate it?

Originally posted by aeturneus
Well, good for you. But, with just 400 turns, you will NEVER make enough trading to take a planet like Foor Axice. So, the game is unbalanced because offense is technically impossible... if we all sit behind our giant lev. 5 citadels and just keep trading and selling organics and making figs, what is the FUN in that? Nobody can be attacked, nobody captured, nobody has to worry about defense very much, as long as you have enough colonists and the minimum of shields.

Comprenez-vous?

IIRC, the Shield Generator just stops photons from affecting the planet, not stopping you from invading. They still need a massive fleet of fighters to defend the planet.

Also, if the port regen rate is low, it cuts both ways. You can't sell your organics, neither can they. You can't trade, neither can they. They get their planets making fighters, so can you.

Maybe the game settings are unusual. You need to devise your strategies accordingly.

[aeturneus]

The damage a quasar cannon inflicts is a function of the amount of fuel ore on the planet. Every time the q-cannon fires, it uses 5% of fuel ore (in this case) therefore it is possible to calculate the amount of fuel ore on the planet based on the difference in damage between two blasts.

It won't take many figs to defend it. Let me explain the steps required to take this planet.

1. enter sector, take 1200 battle points damage
2. try to land on planet, take 15000 battle points damage (assuming an atmospheric attack ratio of 50%, which would be consistent with all other apolyton q-cannons so far encountered)
3. attack shields at a minimum cost of 25,000 fighters to destroy 1000 planetary shields (1:25 odds against an ISS)
4. take an 8000 point blast from the atmospheric q-cannon after the shields are destroyed.
5. take out a probably 5000 fighters at a minimum cost of 10000 fighters.
6. take yet another blast from the quasar cannon of 4000 battle points
7. Land on planet and claim the bloody cannon for your own at a total cost of at least 62,200 battle points - more than the total shields on an ISS - which leads to the next problem

You would have to destroy the shields in an interdictor cruiser, then break off the attack and get into an ISS since an Interdictor Cruiser cannot land on the planet. So the process would be.

1. Photon the sector
2. transport into an Interdictor Cruiser
3. enter sector, take 1200 battle points damage
4. try to land on planet, take 15000 battle points damage (assuming an atmospheric attack ratio of 50%, which would be consistent with all other apolyton q-cannons so far encountered)
5. attack shields at a minimum cost of 25,000 fighters to destroy 1000 planetary shields (1:25 odds against an ISS)
6. take an 8000 point blast from the atmospheric q-cannon after the shields are destroyed.
7. break off attack and take 10,000 battle points damage when re-entering the sector from the other two q-cannons in the sector which will be ready to fire at this point
8. x-port into the ISS
9. Re-photon the contested sector
10. Re-enter the sector
11. take out a probably 5000 fighters at a minimum cost of 10000 fighters.
13. Land on planet and claim the bloody cannon for your own at a total cost of at least 68,000 battle points + 2 p-torps + 1 Interdictor Cruiser

68,000 fighters at todays bargain prices would be somewheres around 13 million.

By the time you make 13 million the planet will have 2x the fuel ore, and it will take about 80-90 thousand fighters to invade the planet.

By the time you make 18 million the planet will have even more fuel ore, so you will need about 100,000 fighters at least

So, to capture foor axice, we are looking at minimum twenty million credits.

This is a hell of a lot of money for a planet that is totally abandoned, and that is only assuming about 5,000 fighters on the planet. If they had a massive fleet of figs on the planet, well, lets see.... make that 25 million credits or something like that.

Also, if the port regen rate is low, it cuts both ways. You can't sell your organics, neither can they. You can't trade, neither can they. They get their planets making fighters, so can you.

Sorry, but this is just totally idiotic and misses completely my original point.

IT IS TOO CHEAP TO DEFEND, because fuel ore is dependent upon the # of colonists, and cash flow is dependent upon the port regen rate. It doesn't matter if they are as poor as you, if nobody can invade anyone else because of the incredible cost, the game still sucks and is unbalanced IMHO. It is possible for the game to become unbalanced like this if the port regen rate is set too low because the port regen rate is a variable number and the ore generation rate is built into the game, and standardized.

S>A currently has a heck of a lot of colonists, but they are all going to be shipped to organics farms in an effort to make enough money over the next month to capture foor axice, just for the heck of it.

Nobody else has enough colonists to even think about doing this... and since apolyton can't access their strong sector anymore, to all intents and purposes, the game is over...

1. colonist flow is low, and you will need about 100 million colonists to make a difference (re: challenge S>A at all) in the game at this point...

2. we have more citadels than anyone, and better ones...

3. we have ports that have been thoroughly upgraded, at a cost of millions of credits...

4. everyone seems to be kind of grumpy about all of this, so I propose rebanging this game with a nice high port regen rate in order to solve all of these problems.

[aeturneus]

oh yeah, sorry for the excruciating detail and length of the above post, but I think almost every single message I have posted here on the topic has been misunderstood, and I thought it was necessary to be as detailed as possible.






I hope it helped

[burbel]

Well, depending on the thoughts about a rebang, there are 3 planets in the sector with Q Cannons, 1 making 35,000 fuel ore per day, one 10,000 per day, and none on Foor Axice.

Fighter rates are around 113 on Foor Axice, 800 on Apolyton I, and 600 on Apolyton III. Now who knows about the other planets;

Question - do planetary shields really help with the Q-Cannon? From what I read, I thought that was a bug, and planetary shields do *not* help against a Q-Cannon.

Rebang?

Technically, Myself, Aeturneus, MarkG, and Solarwind should be out. Now that I know what constitutes a kill...

Does that make Talon the winnder of this game, since he controls a good number of citadels, and is working to take the 88M remaining colos from Apolyton's holdings?

[aeturneus]

talon AND aeturneus...

what do you mean by technically out of the game? The original concept was that you would be out when you were #ship destroyed# 3 times. That has been changed to being out after getting a ship blown up 10 times... as far as I see it, nobody is out of the game under either rule

You will notice that I had two merchant freighters destroyed by a q-cannon yesterday... I had fired a photon missile into foor axice sector, and it didn;t dampen the q-cannon, as proven by the fact that my freighters were destroyed by it. So yes, enough shields DO help a LOT.

Also, shields have a 1:25 defense ratio, which is incredibly high. You have to destroy all shields before you can even see how many figs are on the planet, and the q-cannon blasts you before you attack the shields, and after every attack on the shields.

If foor axice isn't making any ore, we should be able to take it in a month or so. Since the other planets don't have shields, they can be photon dampened and it won't be a problem to take them.

-aeturneus

[Zealot]

Maaaan, I should be seeing this thread more often!

Well, I have to say that this game was a little unbalanced!

But what the heck, whatever I might say doesn't matter anymore, does it?

[aeturneus]

I hope you join the new game at halcyon.ath.cx, zealot... it would be good to have you there