Spanish Grammer

[Chris Wilkinson]

You may remember me mentioning that I was writing a coursework in Spanish...I've started the main bit now and I have a question regarding word order:

I know that who you're talking about > verb > what they're doing works

(ie "Los Celtas fueron un pueblo antiguo")

In some texts I seen it written verb > who you're talking about > what they're doing - is there some rule about this? I'm just wondering so I could have a bit more variety and the markers like that (so could I say "Fueron los Celtas un pueblo antiguo"?)

And happy new year everyone

[jasev]

Re: Spanish Grammer

Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson
so could I say "Fueron los Celtas un pueblo antiguo"?

If I understood you, you ask for the proper order of the verbs in the affirmative sentences in Spanish. Well, theorically speaking, spanish is a very free language in this topic. But it's normal to use the common form:
subject + verb + objects
In affirmative sentences, you should use this structure. The alterated structure is a literary form called "hipérbatón", mainly used in poetics and retorics. You can use it, for example, to start a sentence with a subordinated sentence:

"Fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo que entró en la penÃnsula ibérica..."

But, as I said, its more a stilistic form than an useful structure.

[Kramsib]

Spanish freedom

Los Celtas fueron un pueblo antiguo.

Un pueblo antiguo fueron los celtas.

(Un) Antiguo pueblo fueron los celtas.

(Un) Antiguo pueblo los celtas fueron. (very poetical).

Morphologic analysis.

- Los: Determinant, male, plural.
- Celtas: Noun, generic, plural, (bla, bla, bla).
- Fueron: Verb ("simple past" in English, 3rd person, plural, "preterite perfect simple", Indicative Mode, active voice, perfective tense, in Spanish).
- Un: article, singular.
- Pueblo: Noun, singular, colective (bla, bla, bla).
- Antiguo: Adjective (bla, bla, bla).

Sintactic analysis.

-Subject.-

Los Celtas.

Determinant concording with the noun, they are always toghether, and in this order.

-"Predicate"-

Fueron un pueblo antiguo.

"Fueron", copulative verb which makes the sentence a copulative one. (don't laugh at our copulation).
"Un pueblo antiguo" Atribute, this is a nominal group, but it also could be an adjective.

ie. Los celtas fueron antiguos/feos/guapos/malos/buenos.

This nominal group are formed by, an article "un", a noun "pueblo", and an adjective "antiguo", this last one, is an adjectival group (of only one word but a group) and has some independence.

First, always de article, and then you can use the noun and then the adjective or the adjective and then the noun.

un pueblo antiguo.
un antiguo pueblo

but not "antiguo un pueblo", (it could be but only if you are using "hiperbatons" like Yoda).

Then, the atribute and the subject can change their order in a copulative sentence.

ie.

Los celtas (fueron= verb = "axis") un pueblo antiguo.
Un pueblo antiguo (fueron) los celtas.

You can combine the different "turnings", taking the verb and the nouns like "axis", but remember, determinants and articles always first in each independent nominal group.

Two more things, the article can be omitted, generally if it starts the sentence or if you want to make your writing more poetical. The verb can be at the middle (most of times), at the beginning of the sentence or at the end.

Now I will put the independent groups between brackets, and the secondary independent gropus between double commas.

ie

(Fueron) (los celtas) (un pueblo "antiguo")
(Fueron) (los celtas) (un "antiguo" pueblo)
(Fueron) (un pueblo "antiguo") (los celtas)
(Fueron) (un "antiguo" pueblo) (los celtas)

This four forms are used as interrogative forms, but can also be used as affirmative ones in several contexts. ("fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo los que vinieron de tan lejos ... bla, bla, bla...")

(los celtas) (fueron) (un pueblo "antiguo") The most objective expression.
(los celtas) (fueron) (un "antiguo" pueblo)
(un pueblo "antiguo") (fueron) (los celtas)
(un "antiguo" pueblo) (fueron) (los celtas)
(pueblo "antiguo") (fueron) (los celtas)
("antiguo" pueblo) (fueron) (los celtas)

These six forms are the affirmative ones, the first and the second are the most objective, from the third to the sixth are more common in narrative or epic histories.

(los celtas) (un pueblo "antiguo") (fueron)
(los celtas) (un "antiguo" pueblo) (fueron)
(un pueblo "antiguo") (los celtas) (fueron)
(un "antiguo" pueblo) (los celtas) (fueron)
(pueblo "antiguo") (los celtas) (fueron)
("antiguo" pueblo) (los celtas) (fueron)

These forms indicates some nostalgic feelings of the speaker.

As you can see we have a lot of ways to say the same but remarking the feelings.

PDT.

I hope you will forfive my bad English in exchange of my good Spanish.

[Chris Wilkinson]

(This is why I hate grammer - too many damn combinations! )

Thanks guys, looks like I shouldn't have any problems getting a variety of forms!

I did have another question but I can't remember it at the moment

[Waku]

Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson
(This is why I hate grammer - too many damn combinations! )

So true

I would suggest u to use:

Los celtas fueron(affirmative) and Fueron los celtas?(interrogative)
(same order than English)

noun+adj instead of adj+noun
(opposite)

and forget the rest (simply bearing in mind that u can find more combinations)

[whosurdaddy]

Primero que nada, hay que hablar de la gramatica ingles ... luego podremos hablar de la gramatica espanol

Sorry, just sorta bustin your chops but the word is grammAr, not grammEr. Its kinda ironic to me when people mispell that word, its sorta like if i were to say, "in all sentences it is necessary to use correct punctuation because if you do not you correct punctuation it will be hard for people to understand the point of what you are trying to say so therefore punctuation is something very important"

No offence meant to you by anything, its kind of late and if i seem like an a$$hole please dont mind

[whosurdaddy]

Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson
(This is why I hate grammer - too many damn combinations! )

Completely agree with you. This is why I was forced to burn my grammar book awhile ago. But if you think this is fun, wait till u start getting into the details of proper preposition usage , oh boy is that fun (if one of those little animated faces existed of the face slapping its own self, i would post that here).

Anyway, just to get back to your question, everyone here has certainly done a good job at answering it, but i just wanted to answer it hopefully in a much more simple manner.

Generally speaking from my humble experience, the most "normal" (by normal i mean popular)way to write this statement would be "Los celtas fueron un pueblo antiguo." The sentence, "Fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo" (with the subject and verb reversed), would most likely be reserved for a question, as in "?Fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo? "

I know the word order in spanish is something that is very fluid as has already been said, but i am just trying to give you an idea of what word order is most common, although the long list of sentences that Kramsib gave is also gramatically correct.

Also, i dont think one capitalizes nationalities in spanish. Thus, as far as i know it would be "Los celtas ...," not "Los Celtas...," just the same as it would be los americanos, not los Americanos.

By the way if i am wrong about any of this please someone dont fail to correct me.

Saludos

[Chris Wilkinson]

I hate it so much I've never bothered to learn the name properly

I don't know why I capitalized Celtas - looks like a typo

[Waku]

I know some purists are gonna burn me to the stake for this:

- Capitalizing nationalities: Whos is right but I would never consider it a mistake, perhaps because i capitalize them very often (do not pay too much attention to this rule )

- Accents: It's such a chore for us too that we "forget" them very often, try to not forget to use them when it changes of meaning (práctico/practicó/practico)

- Ñ: This is not an N with an accent, it's a different letter, so we never forget this one. Use alt+164 and alt+165 in your keyboard to write them

[Kramsib]

Capital letters.

In Spanish only proper names start with a capital letter, and obviously, the first letter of any word which starts a sentence after a stop.

Needless to say that some titles are often written in capitals in order to remark their importance.

But the question is, what is a proper name?

Basicly, they are the same in Spanish or in English but there are some differences.

The same.

Names of places, cities, people, buildings, titles, ....

2 basic differences.

1) Days of the week:

- In English, the days of the week are in capitals, but not in Spanish.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, ...

Lunes, martes, miércoles, ...

2) Nacionalities (+ "gentilicios")

Spanish, American, French, English, ((("Conquense", "Santanderino"...)))

Español, americano, francés, inglés, conquense, santanderino, ...

But the English influence in Spanish and the fact that using capitals is useful to find data when you skim a text are changing the tendence, but the rule is the rule.

Personally I find very useful to use capitals to remark an important word, and, when I am writing quickly I do not care about if I am writing correctly, I only want express the idea clearly.

So, finally it depends on the freedom you have when you write. If you are writing a report for your boss you have less freedom than writing a note to you.

[Kramsib]

The order in a sentence.

A sentence in Spanish is formed by two big parts.

Subject. (Generally a nominal group where a noun is the main word).

Predicate. (Where the verb is located and accompanied with the rest of the information, the complements).

ie. Rosa tiene un perro.

Subject : Rosa (noun).
Predicate: tiene (verb) un perro (direct complement).

This is the beginning, and we can complicate it as far as you wish, but this is the main order.

Subject + Predicate (= Verb + Complements).

Now, look at the same basic sentence but more complicated.

LucÃa y Rosa tienen un perro para Ana en el armario.

Subject: LucÃa y rosa, this is a multiple subject formed by two main nouns coordinated and in the same level of importance.

Predicate: tienen (verb)(note the concordance between the subject and the "conjugation" of the verb), un perro (direct complement), para Ana (indirect complement), en el armario (circumstantial complement of place).

Here is the normal order in a simple sentence.

Subject + Predicate (verb, direct complement, indirect complement, circumstantial complements - of place, of mode, ... -)

If you have more questions I will try to answer but I think I will have to use my old notebooks of Language to remember everything.

PDT.

Another difference between English and Spanish about capital letters.

Subjects (or even advances in Civilization)

Language, Mathematics, Economics, Electronics, ...

Lenguaje, matemáticas, economÃa, electrónica, ...

[jasev]

Kramsib, for my sanity, STOP IT!
I think Chris understood you the first time

[Kramsib]

Sorry

[Chris Wilkinson]

We need 'a head exploding' smilie!

[Waku]

What about this:




or this: