The Great what if

[Chris 62]

What is the Great what if? (This idea is from a converstation between Jay bee and myself)

Why simply, what if Columbus had beed turned down by Ferdinand and Isabella, and therefore Spain didn't go to the new world first!

What would this change, if anything?

First, the names of places would different, for a start.
second, there would be no modern Mexico or South America as we know it, no Bolivar, nothing.
In europe, without the new world's gold, Spain could not hope to pay for the wars it fought, like the war of the Austrian seccesion, for example.
North Africa might be very different if the Christians persued the Muslims accross the straights of Gibralter with all of their resources, insteda of forces diverted to the new world.

Other nation's histories would also change.
How would Brittain be if it never fought the Armada?
What if Columbus sailed under the French flag, or the Brittish?
Would John Cabot be more famous if he got there first, ahead of Columbus?
Would there be English colonies in North america if the English were first to central america and it's riches?

So many different things, perhaps some of you could suggest more!

[Waku]

hmmm

Imho the main "what ifs" are those related to Columbus, I think ther would have been little change if Columbus had sailed under another flag. The geographical situation of Spain would have made her one of the competitors in America, perhaps with some disadvantage with other countries (think of France). And paerhaps Spain would have paid more attention to Europe and the turks, with or w/o America Spain was at that time a growing power. Who knows? perhaps it wuold have been more profitable to delay the discovery

[Kramsib]

2 Things.

First, if you want to know the answers to the Great What if's, play Scenarios.

Second, the Great Great What if is: If my father had wheels, he would not be my father, he would be a bycicle.

Traducción de la expresión castellana, si mi padre tuviera ruedas, ya no sería mi padre sino una bicicleta, ya que la Historia es la que es y no va a haber manera de cambiarla, cambiarla implicaría otra nueva historia.

Y CADA NUEVA HISTORIA ES UNA EXCUSA MÁS PARA JUGAR A CIV 2

EACH NEW HISTORY IS A GOOD REASON TO PLAY CIV 2.

[Waku]

hmmm, a new question arises... what if you father had been a bike?

[Jay Bee]

Kramsib, so true, but Chris' question is meant to generate some interesting discussion. So forget all about the Tour de France, be constructive, and speculate on the subject a bit, please

[whosurdaddy]

For me the greatest "what if" is what if the Muslims had won the battle of Tours, and destoryed the bulk of Charles Martel's army, allowing them to conquer France, and instill Islam into the heart of Europe. Think of how different history would have been. Another great what if is what if the Mongols hadnt turned back from the gates of western Europe due to the death of their leader?

With that said, ¡me voy de vacaciones a la Florida! (ya puedo sentir el tiempo calor ...) Que ustedes pasen una feliz navidad.

[Waku]

Originally posted by whosurdaddy
what if the Muslims had won the battle of Tours, and destoryed the bulk of Charles Martel's army, allowing them to conquer France, and instill Islam into the heart of Europe.

Again I don't think that would have changed much the course of history, it just would have moved a bit to the north the so called "reconquista", and perhaps with more northern countries involved.

Originally posted by whosurdaddy
¡me voy de vacaciones a la Florida! (ya puedo sentir el tiempo calor ...) Que ustedes pasen una feliz navidad.

¡Maldito!

Igualmente Whos, Merry Xmass

[Fiera]

Think of Hannibal!

For me the greatest what if take us to the Second Punic War. What if Hannibal had marched directly into Rome? Or even better, what if Carthage had destroyed Rome?

Our cultural heritage (this is more true for Spain than for the Anglo world), would be different, and everything we adress today as "classic", would very likely be lost, as are most of the Carthaginian literature, religion and traditions.

[Jay Bee]

Hey guys, aren't you deviating from the original topic???

[Plan Austral]

Re: Think of Hannibal!

Originally posted by Fiera
For me the greatest what if take us to the Second Punic War. What if Hannibal had marched directly into Rome? Or even better, what if Carthage had destroyed Rome?

Our cultural heritage (this is more true for Spain than for the Anglo world), would be different, and everything we adress today as "classic", would very likely be lost, as are most of the Carthaginian literature, religion and traditions.

I was going to post the same thing,
I think that you saw it in a negative way, but for example imagine
all the technological discoveries that could have been developed in the hellenistic kingdoms that were stopped -in a way- by the romans.
We have to remember all the great discoveries that were made in Alexandria,during all the middle ages and the classical roman period the discoveries made in the ptolomeic kinfdom of egypt were all they had.
We just have to remember Aristarco, the first men who sustained the tesis of Copernico,or Eratostenes who calculated the perimeter of the earth and other people like Arquimides etc..


What could have happened if Alexander the great never tried to invade the persian empire ?

Che,
q mal
mi dominio mediocre del ingles quedo escrachado


Cual es la direccion del diario el pais, aca en argentina estamos pasando el peor momento desde nuestra existencia como pais.
Vieron lo de los saqueos?
Puede pasar en frente de mi casa en cualquier momemnto, ahora hay 8 patrulleros.

[Plan Austral]

Re: Think of Hannibal!

Originally posted by Fiera
For me the greatest what if take us to the Second Punic War. What if Hannibal had marched directly into Rome? Or even better, what if Carthage had destroyed Rome?

Our cultural heritage (this is more true for Spain than for the Anglo world), would be different, and everything we adress today as "classic", would very likely be lost, as are most of the Carthaginian literature, religion and traditions.

I was going to post the same thing,
I think that you saw it in a negative way, but for example imagine
all the technological discoveries that could have been developed in the hellenistic kingdoms that were stopped -in a way- by the romans.
We have to remember all the great discoveries that were made in Alexandria,during all the middle ages and the classical roman period the discoveries made in the ptolomeic kinfdom of egypt were all they had.
We just have to remember Aristarco, the first men who sustained the tesis of Copernico,or Eratostenes who calculated the perimeter of the earth and other people like Arquimides etc..


What could have happened if Alexander the great never tried to invade the persian empire ?

Che,
q mal
mi dominio mediocre del ingles quedo escrachado


Cual es la direccion del diario el pais, aca en argentina estamos pasando el peor momento desde nuestra existencia como pais.
Vieron lo de los saqueos?
Puede pasar en frente de mi casa en cualquier momemnto, ahora hay 8 patrulleros.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Kramsib
Traducción de la expresión castellana, si mi padre tuviera ruedas, ya no sería mi padre sino una bicicleta, ya que la Historia es la que es y no va a haber manera de cambiarla, cambiarla implicaría otra nueva historia.

Quizás él le enseñaría maneras.

See Jay Bee?

This is why I no longer bother.

[kIndal]

Nice question Chris I believed that everything had changed, and sorry but i believe that everything had been better for Spain
If Spain hadnt discovered america probably Charles hadnt been crowned as Holy Emperor, because Francis of France would be the most important king. So Spain had never heird(se dice asi "heredar"?) Netherlands, the main cause of its decadence. And if you see other countries took more profits from Spanish gold than Spain, specially Holland, England and some German states.
I believe that Spain as natural way to go to America had played a important role in the commercial routes but without the problems of conquesting and supporting a great empire, so had earned lot of gold to develop our country without the problems of European wars, just some in Italy and north Africa agaisnt muslims.
I believe that France had been the bad of the story, the French Black Legend hehe and could be that without the obligation of being tha Catholic Champion inquisition had been less powerfull and some Protestant revolt had happened (is it true that in Spain were some Protestant movements?).

Too, I believe that Portugal had made a greatest empire and....well and everything would change

I would like to make a bit larger and develop but I am afraid that my english...

[Dr. Nick]

If my aunt had balls then she'd be my uncle.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

...And your uncle would have some very interesting stories to tell...

If Colombus had not sailed in 1492, he may well have found another patron within the next decade. There was sufficient interest in finding better routes to east asia at that time, somebody would have taken the risk. The English may have sailed to north america, just as they did in history, due to wind patterns and proximity. Going to the tropics would have necessitated passing Spain and France, fierce rivals. The US may have come to be in this case, too. Even with south america open for conquest, it may not have worked out as well. After another few years, the Incas may have been a unified, strong people who would not succumb to conquerors for generations, just as the historical Maya resisted.

The Spanish may well have instead turned to north and west africa. After the moors were purged, would the Spanish have chased them toward Egypt, claiming conquered lands as colonies? If the americas were not all unconquered, they may have focused resources on nearby lands. The americas may have been a prize for which they would have to fight harder than they did.

I suspect either the Portuguese, French or English would have started colonizing the americas if the Spanish hadn't been the first to do so. The result may have been nothing more than a patchwork of colonies, just as africa came to be colonized. Instead of mexico southward being spanish and portoguese, maybe Venezuela would have ended up french, Peru English, or any such possibility.

I think the americas would have ended up colonized, regardless of Columbus' success. Sooner or later, technologically superior europeans would have shown up to take lands.