Tartessos: help me (us) build a fun scn...

[Masis]

In response to Waku's interesting post...

That fact could rewrite the history books, tell me more about it.

The history books show no Greek colonies in the west Mediterranean until the 7th century BC. Does Waku's information correspond to this era?

Although I appreciate that this Forum is dedicated to Hispanic civilisation, we don't really know about the civilisation of Tartessos, even if it was called that in reality nor do we know precisely where it was. so making a scenario about that would be tricky indeed especially if it were to be exclusively based in the Iberian penninsula, where the information on other tribes in the penninsula is scarce as well.
The result of including a wider 'arena' of playing seems inevitable, the other civilisations really did effect the future of the civilisation of Tartessos especially the Phonecians and Greeks, the Phonecians were forced to look to the west as a homeland after the destructuion of their home by the Assyrians-so the Assyrians would need to be played. Why did the Greeks seek to colonise the Mediterranean as well, really for economic reasons, though barbarian invasion from the north into Hellas may as well be the reason.
Certainly the Summerian and later Assyrian ethnic cleansing against the Urartuans may have resulted in their immigration westwards across Anatolia (modern Turkey) and into Hella-leading to conflicts with the natives and their eventual colonisation of northern Italy to be known as the Etruscans.
They retained their skills in Metal work and Engineering that their slaves the Romans would later employ.
so, the inclusion of other civilisations into a future 'Tartessos' scenario is a healthy necessity in order to understand whilst playing, the knock-on-effect each civ has against the other.
Even in the scenario I am designing on the First Crusade, I include the civilisaiton of Fatimid Egypt, the Great Seljuk Sultanate (as wellas the Seljuk Sultanate of Romania or Rum), and even civilisations like the Georgians and Armenians-not just the Crusaders and the 'Byzantines'.

Including a wider arena of play doesnot jeopordise the wish to demonstrate the native civilisations of the Iberian Penninsula-especially when we move far back into history-it is a perfect option.

Jay Bee-I enjoyed the joke-but try not to delete this again.

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MRP

[Jay Bee]

Did you have the page off-lined?

Thanx anyway, it's good to have your many talents and skills handy

About Masis' post. The scenario should forget all about history. Under this premise, Waku's suggestion about Mainake is perfectly valid. Lots of sense civ2-wise too.

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 03-09-2001 So, that means either- 1) The history books are not correct or 2) The facts of Tartessos are intermingled resulting in stories of well established Greek colonies in southern Hispania when according to the history books there were no Greek colonies even in southern France as early as 600 BC. This scenario will pose a problem-either we forget about history and go about making a Hispania only scenario with Tartessos as the main player or we flick through some books and aim at a historical scenario, we know of the other civs and their cities, but we don't even know where Tartessos was-that is the problem. It is understansable that the indigenous history of Hispania should be demonstrated as much as possible through Civ II, but the possibility that the kingdom of Tartessos having the city of Tarsos in Anatolia as a mother culture should be considered as a possibility, it appears at that time in history there was immigration on a large scal from the eastern Mediterranean to the west-why? Surely there were other colonisers involved at this time, apart from the Greeks, Phonecians and Etruscans (from Urartu-east Anatolia. Could the once rich city of Tarsos have been a base for colonisation of the west as well as bases like Atina, Tyre and western Anatolia. ------------------ MRP

[This message has been edited by Waku (edited March 09, 2001).]

[Jay Bee]

Masis posted a very interesting reply which, for some reason is now gone. I strongly suspect that I accidentally deleted it. I know, I know, as a mod I suck big time!!! I am so sorry Masis, could you please re-post?

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 03-08-2001 10:09 PM ... the Greek colony of Massilia is yet to be founded so maybe the Greeks could have a settler based on the place where Massilia would be founded,

According to Avienus (Ora Maritima) there was an inland road from Mainake (greek colony, probably near to Malaga) to Tartessos (because the St.Gibraltar was blocked by Phoenicians(Gadir))

[Shaka Naldur]

quote: I know I should probably finish some other things first

yeah, like the Pizarro scn

I don´t have time to post now but I´ll give my opinion later

[Henrik]

When creating the scenario the landmass numbering alteration thingie described in the sleauge forum could be used...

[kIndal]

It is my first topyc about Tartessos (I don´t really know so much about this theme ) but I think that is a good idea making a scenario about the theme, but as cpoulos have said, I think that the specifical idea of the sceanrio can lose if you add so many foreign tribes and a very big map, why don´t you use only a map of Spain or of the middle of Spain to the South (from Toledo or Madrid to Gibraltar), if you want to add more civs you can put the differents Iberians tribes as per example Bastetanos.

[Jay Bee]

I sincerely do not understand what Etruscans, Numidians... have to do with Tartessos. Also I think the Carthaginians should be called Phoenicians. Also I the limits of the scen do not seem very logical to me....

The most important thing though is to decide on the map. I guess most of you are thinking on a Western med map... why so big??? One of Southern Iberia would be more than enough.


PS. You can't leave the Celts aside Tartessos was 'supposed' to trade with them via the Silver Trail.

[Chris 62]

Hmm...Masis makes some interesting suggestions, but(you knew that was coming ) I think that the map area should be limited to Spain, North Africa, and parts of Italy(for trade purposes). Putting in the eastern med would lose the feel of Tartessos. Also, the AI is very bad with settlers. The Greek city must be founded(although there need not be anything in it). Iron weapons should be at the end of the tech tree, and should be kept away from the tarts. Maybe they could learn a siege tech, but never an iron tech. I like masis' idea for Libyans. Why not see if they can be a factor. I agree that the Celts should be barbarians(there time will come, in a scenario from someone who's name escapes me... ). What kind of civilization was on Corsica and Sardinia at this time(Calling Prometeus!)?

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Masis]

Minor addition to last post-on the position of the Greeks in the Mediterranean...
Just looked at a history book, a page that illustrates the Med at the time of 670 BC, shows Tartessos civ, but shows that the Greek colony of Massilia is yet to be founded so maybe the Greeks could have a settler based on the place where Massilia would be founded, Bireme nearby on the coat with a small 'warrior' detachment to protect the new colony.
They would be prey to either the Celts or Phonecians-maybe the people of Tartessos will go on a exapnsionist advance into the Iberian penninsula and swamp the young Greek colonies???
Forgot about the region of Anatolia (modern Turkey) that too should have Barbarian civ cities based within it to act as a buffer against the Assyrians and Greek colonies in west Anatolia.

The map would not need to include northen France, Switzerland, north Balkans, west Iran. Though a good amount of the north African region should be included to have the city of Meroe-in nubia-allowed as well as some kind of a bases for Numidian/Libyan threatening against the Egyptians and Phonecians.

The Phonecian colonies shown in that book, 670 BC have only the region of Lebanon and the new colony of Kartadash as being the Phonecians cities-they have yet to explore/colonise the rest of the western Mediterranean.


This is deffinately the last post for now!




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MRP

[Masis]

Should the Phonecians be a different civ from the Kartadashians? They are the same people, perhaps you could have a Mediterranean map, with the city of Tyre being besieged by the Assyrians, whilst the new colony of Kartadash begins to prosper, the city could already include within it a palace, so that when Tyre falls, the civ will have a capital without building another one else where.
Certainly I think too that a native north African tribe should be included either Numidians or Libyans (same difference).
Egypt would be under Pharonic (Egyptian) rule based at the southern capital of Meroe so that when northen Egypt is invaded by the Assyrians, that civ too has a capital to go from and does not start building one else-where.
Of course a civ would play the role of the Assyrians.
The region of Hellas would be under Greek rule, with regional capitals at Athena, Syracusa and Massilia-it was the Greeks of Massilia that where detrimental to the people of Tartessos, they wanted to extend their influence as far down the south coast of Iberian penninsula as possible.
The rest of Italy would be under the dominace of the Etruscans represented by the Barbarian civ.
The Celts could be based at Tolouse-with hill-forts to represent their city style-the Tartessians would have the same style also.
And I agree with the idea of having the map hidden-deffinately!

So for civs there are...

1) Tartessians
2) Phonecians
3) Celts
4) Numidians/Libyans
5) Greeks
6) Egyptians
7) Assyrians

Effectively the scenario's objective would be for economic/strategic dominance of the Mediterranean basin.

What do you think of these proposals?

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MRP

[Fiera]

Oh, I forgot to ask your opinion on another issue: what about the map?

I had thought of using my Western Mediterranean map (see Civilización HIspánica), but that one's probably too big... The game would be more interesting on a smaller map, don't you think?

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 03-08-2001 07:00 PM I LOVE THE IDEA!!!

Yes, you know, once it's finished you and I may play (as Tartessos and the Greeks) a PBEM game against Jay Bee and Prometeus (as the evil Carthaginians and Etruscans, trying to destroy all trace of Tartessian legacy).



Everyone else is welcome to join in, of course...

quote: Carthage and Gadir were two Tyrian colonies then I think every punic(=phoenician) colony (no matter if they were older than Carthage) should be under carthaginian control.

I explained this in the other thread. There isn't really evidence that, after the fall of Tyro, Carthago had to make war against the other Phoenician colonies (only some vague references, see the Vitrubio's quote above), but it's a fact that at the beginning of the 5th Century b.C., she was the egemonic power amongst them. I think it's more iteresting for the game if Carthago has to conquer the Phoenician cities before she can reach Tartessos.

quote: There's a tribe that everyone forgets The Numidians, in fact they fought in the Carthaginian side in the 2nd Punic War but went over to the Roman side. Their cavalry was decisive at the battle of Zama.

Yes, but the scn will finish at 509 b.C, and the Numidians weren't really decisive yet. They may be depicted as Barbarians. Furthermore, same goes for the Celts, so I'll probably make them Barbs too. That way I may include the Ligurs (Genoa).

What do you think? Who is more important for the game?

[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited March 08, 2001).]

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 03-08-2001 07:00 PM How about the Tartessos player can only research peaceful things, like better farming, increased trade (upgrade the caravan to freight), better city defences such as walls, things to increase the number of shields (such as factories), that a city produces. Everything would be renamed of course.

It seems that the Tartessians, though expert metal laborers and artisans, had poorly developed cities and buildings. Their cities were more like a hill with a bunch of huts in it... So obvious things to research by the Tartessians are Masonry (City walls), Construction (Aqueduct) and probably the ability to build an improved temple (Colosseum or Cathedral, renamed to High Temple or whatever). The better farming and increased trade things sound good to me. As for military, I believe they only had Bronze weapons. Maybe they could try to acquire Iron Working from the Greeks, but not research it by themselves.

quote: they could be player triggers on the map(It would encourage exploring, but only if the map was hidden). I assume we are all familiar with the geography of Spain and the Western med(Duh!), so hiding the map would not hamstring the players, but would hide any of the good (or bad) stuff on the map.

Yes, the map will be definitely hiddenIt is supposed that the Greeks and the Carthagininas are exploring unknown lands. Coastal lines will be visible for them, at least as far west as Tartessos, but not the inner land.

quote: Give me some time to think about it. I will think of more stuff.

Go ahead, please!

[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited March 08, 2001).]