Iberia v Latin America

[Hoek]

Out of curiosity, do the people of Iberia feel a "oneness" with the people of Latin America? Do the people of Latin America feel the same way about Iberia as Iberians feel about Latin America?

The reason I ask is because a year ago, i travelled back to the Netherlands, which is where all of my heritage is from, and I discovered how disconnected i was from the people there, and that it was silly to consider myself in any way Dutch, and just to think of myself as American. I was curious, though, if there are stronger ties with Iberia in Latin America.

[Waku]

IMHO people in Spain doesn't even feel like an oneness.

[Jay Bee]

Hoek,

Of course there are. We are pretty much the same in almost everything. Our common origin still heavily shows. Same language, same culture, same ways... What happened to you in Holland is easily understandable. Your American education is completely different from Dutch culture. You probably do not even speak Dutch, don't you?

As to the oneness, you sure you spelled the word right? You were not referring to the onanist business, right?

[Hoek]

No, i don't speak dutch, but it's curious to me that I'm only a 2nd (or is it 3rd) generation American and I don't see any trace of dutch culture. It's true that I don't speak a word of dutch, but I somehow doubt that those with English ancestory in America would feel some true kinship with British people in England or South Africa or Australia or anything like that. Beyond that, I'm not completely sure about this, but if I'm not mistaken, most Latin Americans do have some Spanish blood, but that the make-up is mostly Indian. If this is so, then why do Latin Americans not feel a greater 1ness ( ) with the indigenous people of South and Central America?

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 02-25-2001 05:04 PM You were not referring to the onanist business, right?

lol! The funniest euphemism I've ever heard, Jay Bee!

[Jay Bee]

Latino people keep very strong ties with their friends and relatives, something that does not happen in the Anglo culture. When an Englishman leaves his country to settle e.g. in America, he most often does not look back. When a Spaniard or Latin American leaves his own country, he always does it with all his illusions put on the day he returns home. It's as difficult to explain as is to understand it, I know. I have had this conversation so many times before...

About the indians, let me ask you something. Have you ever thought why the Pueblo indians adopted Spanish names and the Spanish language as their native tongue? If this still happens with a tribe that lives among Anglos, imagine those who live among Hispanics. I do not want you to accuse me of being a 'Spanish supremacist' or an ultranationalist cos I am neither, but the Spanish culture has something that keeps people faithful to it no matter where or what they are. What is that 'something'? I can't tell. Guess you have to be a Hispano to understand it

Where I live I have interacted with people from practically all of the Spanish-speaking countries of the world, and I have felt equally well among all of them. That was so because they always considered me as one of their kind. And I was. I am. It's so different with the Brazilians!

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Hoek on 02-25-2001 05:33 PM I'm not completely sure about this, but if I'm not mistaken, most Latin Americans do have some Spanish blood, but that the make-up is mostly Indian. If this is so, then why do Latin Americans not feel a greater 1ness ( ) with the indigenous people of South and Central America?

There's something of that, too, specially among poor and isolated regions, with strong indigenous cultural heritage... Chiapas may be a good example, as well as the most part of Perú and Bolivia, if I'm not wrong... But even they can't deny the strenght of the Spanish influence, showed in their language (some of them still retain their indigenous languages, but everyone knows Spanish) and religion...

[The Hogfather]

The reason why the indians adopted Spanish is because they were forced too. The indians (at least in Argentina) are ashamed of the fact that their own culture has been occluded by extermination by the Spanish.
If they could choose, they would have preferred never to meet the Spanish and this is hot off the pan. My father lived among indians two months a year, and they hate the loss of their culture. And that was due to the Spanish.

[Waku]

There is something I've never understood.

Why do the Latin American countries blame Spain for all the spanish conquerors sins?

They are descendants of this conquistadores as much as nowadays spanish are.

In my opinion, instead of point at Spain they should assume their part of responsability for that.

[The Hogfather]

Well Waku, 90% of the extermination in South America was undertaken by the Spanish directly or by Spanish borne diseases.
After that, there wasn't much left for native descendants of the Spanish to do.
Besides, the comparison between the way the Spanish annihilated the indians in comparison to all military campaigns undertaken by Latin Americans to exterminate them amounts to almost nothing.
Besides, they feel just as resentful to us, your descendants as well, in most cases at least.

[Chris 62]

The last few years here in New York, there have protesters against Colombus Day! They say that the arrival of Spain in the new world was a hostile invasion, and that the Spanish were ruthless killers who took what they wanted, and killed or inslaved everything else. There are not many of these, but they are always at the parade we have for Colombus Day. Oh, and I am still close to my anglo heritage (on my mother's side).

------------------
All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Waku]

I just mean that if you blame my ancestors for that, you're forgotting to blame yours for the same reason. And I'm not talking about anything happend after the independence.

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 02-26-2001 07:06 AM I just mean that if you blame my ancestors for that, you're forgotting to blame yours for the same reason. And I'm not talking about anything happend after the independence.

He, he, I have also discussed a lot about this. No Waku, the thing goes funnier than that. They blame it to our ancestors when in reality the only ones to blame are THEIR ancestors. Ours stayed home, that's why we are Spaniards and not Latin Americans.

That reminds me of an Argentine friend of mine (a very good one), named Gustavo López MartÃnez (so 100% Spanish blood) who was telling me that Argentina is a country made up by immigrants and that the biggest wave of immigration was when ustedes los españoles NOS invadieron en el siglo XVI. Really funny stuff. (translation: when you Spaniards invaded us in the XVI c)

I have many more stories like this...

Anyway, to me those are for the most part only opportunistic remarks.



[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited February 26, 2001).]

[Waku]

They seem to forget that the american independence was a creole revolution, not an indian revolution.

(creole=spanish born in America, descendant of spanish born in Spain)

[Allard HS]

quote: The reason I ask is because a year ago, i travelled back to the Netherlands, which is where all of my heritage is from, and I discovered how disconnected i was from the people there.

Hoek, great to speak you again. When were you in NL?

Anyway, I think there are two kinds of emigrants. Those who leave because they don't like the place they live in anymore, and those who hope to have a better (usually financially) life in another country.

Colonial nations such as Spain, and poor countries such as Italy, Greece, produce the second type, who live in their new country but still feel as Spanish, Italians and Greeks.

Those who leave because they don't like it anymore somewhere, like the Dutchmen who flew before or during the war, clearly left their country of origin forever to build a new life. It's logical that they don't keep their roots and their origins into their way of life, they don't regularly visit their old mothercountry, but fully created a new mothercountry.

Of course, it's also true that the Southern European people are more family-oriented, in total love with their country, etc. than us Northerners, but that's not the only reason.

Holland has had two great waves of emigration. In the 16th and the 20th century. The reason for the 20th I already explained, but the 16th century emigration was for a different reason, and that was the reason number two of the two. At those times, the Dutchmen just wanted to enrich themselves and return, anyway to retain their culture.
For example, president Roosevelt, originating from 17th century dutch immigrants in Nieuw Amsterdam, still was able to speak a few centuries of Dutch, but very old fashioned, 17th century-like Dutch, that had been passed on through all the centuries.

This proves that we Dutch are not always so neutral to the country of origin, but that it is more that the emigrants specifically choose their new independence.