Spain's Greatest Defeat

[Chris 62]

Allright dudes, we talked about Spain in victory , now we must see Spain in defeat. . Same as last time, any Spanish speaking country can be included, But for a twist, pick a land and a sea fight. As last time, I won't say what I'm thinking till you guys comment first.

[kIndal]

Without doubt, the defeat of Rocroi in 1643, it was the starting of the end for Spanish Power in Europe.

[Waku]

No doubt: "The War of Cuba"

No other defeat has had more bitter effects.

[Shaka Naldur]

well, the most famous one for non spaniards is the great armada
but I agree with Kindal and Fiera about Rocroi

[XIWVWIX]

VAMOS San Martin CARAJO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fiera]

Agreed, kIndal, 1643 was such a sad year for Spain...

As for the sea fight, it can't be other but Trafalgar, and I guess cpoulos is thinking of that one too...

Why did we have to make an alliance with those damned French?

[The Hogfather]

1810 was a sad year for Spain...

VIVA LA INDEPENDENCIA! VIVA!

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by The Hogfather on 01-30-2001 12:29 PM 1810 was a sad year for Spain... VIVA LA INDEPENDENCIA! VIVA!

No, not so sad...

If I, for one, could change the history, I would rather make the Spanish army defeat the French at Rocroi, than to avoid American independence...

No sé si quedó muy claro (ay, mi inglés), o sea que lo traduzco:

Preferiría haberles dado una patada en el culo a los franchutes que impedir la emancipación de las colonias... Nos ha jodido...

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by kIndal on 01-30-2001 02:50 AM Without doubt, the defeat of Rocroi in 1643, it was the starting of the end for Spanish Power in Europe.

Right on the money Kindal and Fiera about Rocroi! Ah, but Fiera, Trafalgar was not a loss for Spain as much as for France. You could even say it was a victory, as it helped to dampen French power. The sea fight was not the Armada(It would be my second choice) but Cape Finister. 26 Spanish Ships-of-the-line defeated by 16 British warships, the one bright spot was the saving of Santissima Trinidad from being captured(The Santissima Trinidad was the largest warship of the Napoleonic wars).

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-31-2001 03:16 PM Ah, but Fiera, Trafalgar was not a loss for Spain as much as for France. You could even say it was a victory, as it helped to dampen French power.

Let's call it a bittersweet loss then...

[The Hogfather]

quote: Originally posted by Fiera on 01-30-2001 12:45 PM No, not so sad... If I, for one, could change the history, I would rather make the Spanish army defeat the French at Rocroi, than to avoid American independence... No sé si quedó muy claro (ay, mi inglés), o sea que lo traduzco: Preferiría haberles dado una patada en el culo a los franchutes que impedir la emancipación de las colonias... Nos ha jodido...

Eso fue en 1810? Si los hubieran roto el culo a los frnachutes, no hubiera habido emancipacion!

[Jay Bee]

I was out of town and could not respond to this thread on time. But I agree with the opinions by others; greatest naval defeat Trafalgar, and greatest land defeat Rocroi.


A note about the disaster of the Spanish Armada. This loss (?) has been exaggerated til the unimaginable. The real truth is that the Spanish 'suffered' a very undecisive defeat. Philip II was able to completely rebuild the fleet within a few months after the battle. Not many people know that Philip II sent another Armada (this time only 52 ships!) against Britain just 9 months after the first one. The ships encountered very bad wheather when approaching Brittany and, in view of the precedent, decided to turn back (source: Philip of Spain by Henry Kamen, an English historian)

Another note about the tragedy of Trafalgar: Spain was still the second naval power in the world and did not deserve to be smashed the way it was. Spanish, not French, admirals should have been put in command. I do not discuss that the victory would have been for the British anyway, but it is most certain that the defeat could have been much more honorable. Not to mention that this battle crippled the Spanish navy for centuries to come.


------------------
"Yo hablo español; el castellano no lo sé pronunciar"
(I speak Spanish. I do not know how to pronounce Castilian)

Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited February 01, 2001).]

[jasev]

In earth, no doubt: Rocroi was absolutely decissive. It was the death of Spain as a global potence and the confirmation of France as the new one. It was also the end of the "tercios", clarely defeated by the "batallions" as a result of the new and more effective fire weapons (muskets).
In the water... well, Jay Bee is right when says the Spanish Armada is more a legendary defeat than a decissive defeat (I also read Kamen's book), and the defeat at Trafalgar was the end of the Spanish Navy. No doubt the french losses were greater, but there is a very important point: during XVI and XVII century, spanish navy had great ships and mediocre admirals; in XVIII century, a new generation of naval officers as good as english ones appeared. For the first time, Spain had a great navy with well-prepared Admirals (Churruca, for example). And Trafalgar destroyed that.

P.S: ¡Puñeteros gabachos! ¡Como enemigos son terribles y como amigos ni te cuento!

[jasev]

Excuse me, wrong post
[This message has been edited by jasev (edited February 08, 2001).]