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**the_orange1** · August 29, 2001, 08:19

Surely I should have only one disband - one unit was destroyed and I lost 2 SCs. I still have Munich as my only remaining SC.

And I'll just retreat OTB which saves me disbanding, so I believe that is now no disbands....

**Sahib** · August 29, 2001, 08:33

Yes, you are right. And OTB it is. Although, since this is a newbie game, let me give you a piece of advice: never ever retreat OTB. Even if the retreat is obvious. Retreating OTB gives your enemies a piece of information that you don´t have to give them.

**RUFFHAUS 8** · August 29, 2001, 08:53

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**RUFFHAUS 8** · August 29, 2001, 09:06

In this situation Sahib is technically correct. However, there are situations where a retreat OTB is a very sound tactical move. In this case it's pretty obvious that Orange isn't likely to stay in Gascony anyway.

Since we are offering advice here: Yoav, nice try, but you need EIGHTEEN (18) centers to win. OOOOOOOPS~!

Here's a tip for you now... take the draw, because, you ain't gonna win!

Siro, in case you need anything (wink wink) The Tsar can be reached at ( RUFFHAUS8@aol.com ), that is until he departs for his Norwegian vacation.

**Yoav** · August 29, 2001, 18:43

Sorry Orange and Ruff.... I really didn't plan that long to do this..
But since draw offers were made for a 4 player victory, and I thought it wasn't weighted right, I wanted at least to clear the two of you, so me and Siro can have half a point each.
Another thing that helped was Ruff entering the North Sea, I have to admit - it made me suspicious.

P.S.... Siro: you were not supposed to notice I am to get 18 SC's!!!

**Yoav** · August 29, 2001, 18:51

Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8
that is until he departs for his Norwegian vacation.

Is tat a hint?

should I look for Norway?

Anyway don't be mad

... I can't accept the draw until we are left at least 3 players... otherwise all of this was unworthy of taking the risk of...

**Sirotnikov** · August 30, 2001, 11:55

Good Yoav!

You're an excellent Diplomat.

I can't believe all of the others actually had fallen for your trick. It was easy as hell seeing you would get 5 SCs.

I just never suspected Russia to be gullible aenough. And I'm disapponted in Italy - I told him about your intentions and urged him to act quickly.

The most obvious hint was the disapopintment when you realized you had 12 SCs and not 13. Then I had no doubt you wanted to get to 18 in one turn. But how the hell idd you think I would agree to let you do it?

All in all I'm disappointed in Russia and Italy. They're both not much of newbies....

**RUFFHAUS 8** · August 30, 2001, 14:29

I tell you what, I really should retrain myself, but I won't. You two peckerheads are something else. You wanna mouth off about who's gullible? That's a laugh! What F$(king choice did I have? What choice did Orange have? We tried to stop they Turkish solo, rather successfully I might add. I'd say the fact that I've been around 3-4 years after inherriting a crap position as a favor is a fair testament. I'm not embarassed by it. That's for sure. Orange has done even better.

If you wanna talk about gullible, lets talk about the guy who's been at 15 SCs for three years, and has been getting his ass kicked. Siro this game should have been so over three years ago. Only your bumbling incompetence has allowed Yoav back into the race. And that clown hadn't a clue of how to push you back.

All this smack talk is great, but let's see either of you two try this from the beginning of a game, and we'll see who does what and who's gullible. Now shut your pie hole and end this game (if you can that is!). Then we can start from scratch and I'll teach you a real lesson.

**Defiant** · August 30, 2001, 14:49

Siro, Yoav........
Did you ever watch Tora! Tora! Tora!

When the attack on Peral Harbor was over do you know what line the Japanese Admiral (Yamamoto) said about it,
" I think we have just awaken the sleeping giant "
He was right, there should be no cross-gaming but you two are asking to get your asses kicked in the next game.

Siro, you are right, Ruffhaus8 ain't much of a newbie, that is because he is arguably one of the best players playing this game. Now I am sure you were kidding when you made that comment but you should be careful how you say things. You are doing really good in the ADC game I am GM'ing and you have a real chance at making it to the final game, but be advised so do the likes of Ruffhaus, myself, Berzerker and some other good players and they may consider you lunchmeat that game.
BE GOOD!

**Sahib** · August 30, 2001, 18:22

As the GM I will refrain from commenting on the game moves (although I am burning to put in my two pence, having watched that game from the beginning). But allow me one more general remark:

I would be very careful about upsetting somebody who currently is 22nd in the world email tournament and is leading the individual stats in the yahoo tournament this year. People have been killed for less

**Yoav** · August 30, 2001, 20:58

Hey Ruff, calm down..
I never said anything about you, it's only that Siro who did that

Anyway I know you hadn't a choice, and I just had it fully exploited

...
Anyway noone here doubts your superior dip skills etc.. and besides, why are you taking everything so personally?

I could see that even though you WERE going with me with no intentions of stabbing me in the not-so-near future, you WERE taking precautions every now and then, and those only made me suspicious. I believe that in the last turn (when you moved to the North Sea), you didn't really want to offend me as I was afraid you were, though we did strictly agree on you NOT going there. A misunderstanding? perhaps. But it did get me very suspicious - for after all - you and Siro might have had something.
Anyway, sorry but... you of all players should know not to take stabs and such personally.. as it's only a game

And Siro... what I said was a joke. As a matter of fact I, too, believed that at least one of the two (Ruff and Orange) would prevent me from taking one SC for the least.
I didn't really think I would get 18 SC's, but instead was hoping for steady 17, so when you finish Russia and Italy (with my help, perhaps) we could have a nive 17-17 draw instead of that unfairly spread 12-15-4-3 draw.

Anyway, going on with our triple alliance (Me, Italy and Russia) would have lead this game nowhere. Perhaps after I would have rejected a few draw offers, Ruff might have decided to attack me.

**Yoav** · August 30, 2001, 21:04

And about what Defiant and Sahib said... I don't th it's fair to think this way. When playing a sole game, you should think about the consequnces in this game and in this game only.
It's not fair to treat a player 'well' in one game in order to get him to be nicer to you in another.
If I, say, stabbed Ruff, I don't think he should call a vandatta upon me in all other games I happen to play with him. Same goes for helping a player out from a desperate situation.
Players who remember things for other players from previous games are, in my opinion, morally wrong.
But... that's just what I think.

**RUFFHAUS 8** · August 30, 2001, 21:56

Yoav, I think you misunderstand me. In game - I am furious with you. Out of game - I admire the chance that you took. I think it was ill-timed and clumsy. And it's pretty lousy of you to say that we agreed about the North Sea, and use that as some bull$hit rationale for the stab. Grow some balls, man! Just admit that you wanted the solo. I TOLD you about the move to North Sea, and asked that you move to Yorkshire for a followup (fall) convoy. WE definately did not agree to this. You needed another army in Germany/Poland to prevent Siro from getting through (like he did in Prussia - oops). So in game - I am going to help Siro win, because you are a lying stabbing bastard. Now if we play again, that's another story.

As for Siro. In game - I have no problem with him. I'm going to help him solo, if he has the guts to take what's sitting right in front of him.

Out of game - I think he's an arrogant donkey without a clue as to what's going on around him. To sit here and gloat over pummeling two mercy posions (Italy and Russia) who had no choice but to comply with major powers as they try to survive. This from the guy with a solo victory within reach for three years now, and almost lost it to you. So I'm challenging him to put his money where his mouth is. I'll be gunning for him one day. But then again, I'm gunning for everyone

**Sirotnikov** · August 30, 2001, 23:07

I appologize for the post, which was indeed arrogant.

Reading it now, it does sound harsh and patronising, but english is my 3rd language, so sometimes when seeking for
some words, I use ones with too harsh meanings.

By no means did I intend to sound better or to doubt Ruffhaus's or the Orange One's abilities. I can't come close to
even comprehend Ruffi's status, and while I don't know much about Orange, he played great with his cards, getting
Italy that was about yo be attacked by me and yoav, and keeping it alive for so long.

I was very sad that The Orange One didn't believe me and chose to colaborate with yoav, even though a rookie like
me could see Yoav is about to take whole of his towns. But again, maybe that is from experience, since I played
several games with yoav in RL and learnt to expect his attacks.

I also expected that Ruffhaus, being neutral, will try to defend your SC in england, and that was one of the major
points I expected yoav to lose in his calculation to get 18.

More than thinking of you, I was disappointed that things didn't turn out the way I expected them and that is wrong.

Again, I was of line in calling Ruffhaus and Orange Gullible and saying I am disappointed and such. I therefore apologize, and hope for the best.

I also hope Ruffhaus won't come to hunt me down in my next game

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