Nostalgia Diplomacy Begins

[Amon Savag]

I have till Friday it seems till I need to send my orders in...Or so EiF Emailed

[Nubclear]

Viva la Revolucion!

Slav'sya Rossiya!!!!

[Bosh]

OK, I would really really like orders from Amon soon because I'm leaving to spend the weekend in Seoul first thing after work (so to get things adjudicated during my lunch break I'd need orders before 11 PM Thursday EST. But if he needs until friday EST I can probably pop into a cybercafe some time during the weekend and at least post results and make a map when I get back to Seoul.

Sorry for the delay all.

[Monk]

I'm really sorry for my absence which was due to a computer breakdown on the day you began as well as the power shortage. Really, really sorry for any problems and/or confusion this has caused to anybody, especially you Boshko. I'm happy to see you worked out a replacement that will hopefully continue the magnificent streak of Polish military victories.

[chequita guevara]

What happened to pulling random people off chat and ICQ?

Dood! I've got the shakes now from my Dip withdrawl.

[Bosh]

the pulling people off of ICQ is for once the game gets going (don't want to gimp a country from the start) and is usually reserved for countries that've been smacked down hard enough that nobody wants to take them over.

[orange]

Boshko - that house rule really sucks, i must say...especially if used in the first year. Instead of screwing over the nation that isn't sending orders, it screws over the other nations that are!

...but keep me in mind for a replacement anyway. I'll gladly take any nation in any position if needed.

[SnowFire]

Which rule do you refer to?

If you mean "no missing moves in the first year," this is a common rule I've seen everywhere. NMRs in the first year are just stupid, and you might as well restart your game since it's already corrupted. Making sending players wait is simply a necessary trail.

If you mean "use substitute in the first year," Boshko said he wouldn't do that, precisely because it severely screws over the nation NOT sending orders. Being that diplomacy is genearlly the most important in the first year, and it's darn near impossible to make an "impartial" opening.

If you mean "Grab people over ICQ," how does that even remotely screw over people who are sending in orders? It only does if, without the benefit of diplomacy, the replacement somehow orders better moves. Considering it's common practice for replacements to order rather tepid defensive orders knowing that they can't diplomicize, this is pretty rare, unless the person was actively self-destructive. I mean, I suppose it hurts somebody in an alliance counting on some supporting moves, but that would be hurt even more by an NMR.

What really screws over players is being in a game that has no point as of the 3rd year or so, because repeated NMRs have sealed the nation that could best capitalize on the disodered nation's victory. That's no fun.

[Berzerker]

Boshko has asked me to take over Poland again because Amon isn't responding. But I'm a bit confused, Amon is here posting and asked that the deadline go till friday. And now Monk is back!!! I notified Boshko I would take over but needed till saturday or sunday to at least talk with neighbors, so I suggest y'all set the deadline for when Boshko gets back after the weekend.

Monk, you were the original Poland so why don't you take it? Amon can be the 1st alternate and I'll be 2nd. Would both Monk and Amon post here asap as to whom will play Poland, please? I really lack the enthusiasm I once had for the game but did tell Boshko I would play if needed and I'm not sure I am needed with 2 people who do want to play...

[Amon Savag]

What the crap!?I sent in orders as a reply to Boshko's last freakin message to me!This is an absolute outrage!

[chequita guevara]

As everyone else has sent in their orders, Poland has no diplomacy the first turn.

[Bosh]

Sorry all I asked berzerker to take over before when I wasn't getting any communication with Amon. All orders are in, adjudications commencing.

[orange]

Originally posted by SnowFire
Which rule do you refer to?

If you mean "no missing moves in the first year," this is a common rule I've seen everywhere. NMRs in the first year are just stupid, and you might as well restart your game since it's already corrupted. Making sending players wait is simply a necessary trail.

Yes, this is a common rule. Best thing to do in this case is to find a replacement and set a new deadline 5 days in advance. Usually the person taking over starts at a disadvantage, but it's the most fair solution.

If you mean "use substitute in the first year," Boshko said he wouldn't do that, precisely because it severely screws over the nation NOT sending orders. Being that diplomacy is genearlly the most important in the first year, and it's darn near impossible to make an "impartial" opening.

Substitutes should be used, but should be given time to dip.

If you mean "Grab people over ICQ," how does that even remotely screw over people who are sending in orders? It only does if, without the benefit of diplomacy, the replacement somehow orders better moves. Considering it's common practice for replacements to order rather tepid defensive orders knowing that they can't diplomicize, this is pretty rare, unless the person was actively self-destructive. I mean, I suppose it hurts somebody in an alliance counting on some supporting moves, but that would be hurt even more by an NMR.

It absolutely does. And what's worse, it screws over the people who are actively dipping as well! The reason I know is that it happened to me in my first ever dip game - a modern variant, and even more oddly enough, Imran was Italy.

This took place at the old Frontier forums (which may or may not still be up) nearly 2 years ago. I was playing as France, and was very excited about my first game. I spoke to Italy (Imran) Germany (El Awrence) and Spain (who I believe was Victor Galis). Poland was played by Ruffhaus, and the Ukraine by Defiant (I believe)

Imran and I talked a bit to set up a joint attack on Germany whereby I would get Switzerland and he would get Austria. When moves came out, I was shocked to see Italy bounce me in Swi (after he promised support) and allow Germany into Austria. I immediately researched the adjudication only to find out that the GM (I forget who it was) had simply gone on ICQ and chosen a random person to submit orders for Italy since he was in danger of NMRing. His orders were very anti-France, though we had both set up the basis of our strategies on cooperation against Germany (and planned later cooperation against Spain) Because of this, my opening was screwed and I was held as a second class power right off the bat. I never even had a chance. An NMR would have been better because the replacement Italy that came in would have been in a neutral stance, not in an anti-France stance, and may have considered working with me rather than continuing with the western moves.

I don't see how the random moves from a person on ICQ could ever be considered a reasonable house rule. It has no purpose whatsoever.

What really screws over players is being in a game that has no point as of the 3rd year or so, because repeated NMRs have sealed the nation that could best capitalize on the disodered nation's victory. That's no fun.

That's why we find replacements. NMRs, while certainly unwanted, are not necessarily devastating to a game...just like civil disorder. It adds the element of a nation suffering from discontent or shortages at home, and causes players to rethink their strategies based on what they were hoping for. Completely random moves without diplomacy serves no historical function, unless you want to cite temporary coups, and only annoy those players that are doing the right thing - dipping and getting orders in on time.

[chequita guevara]

bounce

[orange]

eh?