Imperial Dip 50: Fall 1870 Moves

[Gerwald]

Since it would appear that the Mexicans have 3 builds.

here they are:
F REC
A BRA
F SCT

[RUFFHAUS 8]

The latest Diplomacy rules are available here:

http://www.hasbro.com/instruct/Diplomacy.PDF

CIVIL DISORDER

If you leave the game, or otherwise fail to submit orders for a given spring or fall turn, it is assumed that your government has collapsed. Your units hold in position, but do not support each other. If they are dislodged they are disbanded. No new units are raised for the country.

If a country in civil disorder has to remove units, the units fatherest from the country are removed first. If units are equally distant, then remove fleets before armies, and then in alphabetical order by the provinces where they are located.

It is probably best if enough players are present, to allow someone else to replace any player who leaves the game. Players should decide what policies they will follow before the game.



Also here is the rule on civil disorder removals (civil disorder nations never build) from a previous Avalon Hill Diplomacy game:

XV. MISCELANEOUS
5. CIVIL DISORDER REMOVALS - If a country in civil disorder has to move units, because it lost supply centers, the unit farthest from home (most distant from nearest home supply center as computed by the shortest available route, including convoys) is removed first, the fleet before the army. If more units are equally eligible for removal than should be removed, priority is established by the names of the space which they are located, the earliest in alphabetical order coming off first.

[SnowFire]

Gerwald: Alright, so you played your moves thinking they would retreat OTB. Fair enough. I will say that this isn't GM fiat, I would never do something like that without setting up a totally mechanical system first.

I'm still confused as to why there would be special civil disorder rules for this game

These are special? I know that some hardcore games are played that way as an encouragement not to NMR, but I thought the standard would be totally random retreats (instead of semi-random).

I will say this: my apologies to those who disagree, but enemy units will not retreat OTB unless there are no other options. Like I said before, I don't want to set/continue a bad precedent for other games that could ruin CD positions even more than they already tend to be. What I will do is make it so that they retreat into friendly SCs first, random territories second, and an enemy SC only if there is no other choice (as illogical as that might be, if there was actually a player behind it). If this is a real problem, then I will happily step down as GM and let a different one willing to apply retreats OTB take over.

Therefore, the fleet retreats to New Guineau.

Anyway, now is a good time to go over CD build/disband procedure.
-If they have builds, then they aren't used and are stored.
-If there are disbands, then do not disband any unit on an SC.
-After that requirement has been checked, start disbanding the units farthest from a SC controlled by them. To break ties, disband units farthest from a home SC first (if it is convenient to check, like on a Standard map. Prolly will not be done on this map). To further break ties, use randomness.

This is the one I've always agreed with. If anybody has any objections, please say so now or forever hold your peace.

Hmph, I do believe that was my first turn ever ajudicated with units in CD, believe it or not... reminds me of why I generally try and avoid it like the plauge.

[Gerwald]

WHOA!!!! I moved out of NZE because the rules stated that countries in civil disorder would have units retreat OTB. Why shouldn't the Dutch unit retreat to its own center if not off the board. Why should any GM dictate a gain or loss of a supply center? I formally protest that Dutch retreat.

[Defiant]

Snowfire,
If you did put in you thread prior to the moves, then it would be our fault, I personally didn't read it and that would be my fault. You are the GM of this game now regardless of our or MDR's game, do what you think is best. I am just glad somebody picked the game up.

[RUFFHAUS 8]

I just checked the Fall 1869 map, and Queensland was held by England at the End of 1869, there fore it's still an English possesion now. There may be some confusion about the colors used inside the SC dots, and the similar nature of the blue color shades.

However, that's really an afterthought. I'm still confused as to why there would be special civil disorder rules for this game? No one here wants Holland or France ot be in CD. But we cannot get anyone to play the positions. We had replacement players, but to my knowlegge they made no effort to conduct diplomacy and then abanadoned the positions as their predecessors did.

I won't belabor it further. My opinion has been given, and I think the CD units should be disbanded when forced to retreat. Let's hear from Gerwald, and from Orange_1 too.

[SnowFire]

I guess it beats no orders, or maybe he authorized the switch

Nah, I explained how it worked out in the replacement thread- just as I was about to send him a third notice to get the moves in, I saw his post in the OT that he'd be gone for a week with no Internet. I made an executive decision that we didn't shouldn't delay the game yet another week, and yet he shouldn't be punished for NMRing on a soft deadline. Hence the made-up moves.

As to your other concerns... well, therein lies the problems of replacement. Your point is well-taken Defiant, I'm afraid not many people read that replacement thread I mentioned above, but I did formulate my policy for civil disorder retreats there. I considered sending out another email about it to insure everybody knew and could plan their moves around that, but some people had already turned in their orders and I didn't want to slow things down even more, so I decided not to. Guess that was a mistake. But yes, if I had been GM from the start, I would have been very careful to make sure everybody knows the CD rules.

And by the way RUFFHAUS, Queensland is still a Dutch province, the British army moved out of it. So it was a choice between two home provinces and an enemy SC. As for the rationale, if there had been a choice, it would have been random. That's what CD nations are. I figure that random half-a-brain moves are better than predictable 0 brain moves at times.

Still, it's you guys and MDR's game. I'd be most curious as to what Gerwald has to say about this, since he's most directly affected.

[His Divine Shadow]

Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8




Austrian A Piedmont - Marseilles (bounces)

*EDIT - Never mind, I just saw the order boo-boo. Ruff is correct, the A Piedmont is still there because I never moved A Mrs. My bad.

[Defiant]

Snowy,
Ruff is right, players would be making these moves with the understanding that these two nations are in civil disorder and the standard practice in any game unless otherwise specified is to remove the dislodged piece from the board. I think this turn you have to do that, if you state now that civil disordered units can retreat to enemy SC's than at least it is understood now and corrections can be made to the move sequence to cover such a chance.

[RUFFHAUS 8]

SnowFire: First, nice avatar! Next. I will TRY to do the maps, but as I said, I can make no promises. I appreciate you taking the game on and when the map didn't come out I suspected that because I have been hosting it, that people expected me to make it. Maybe Orange can help, though I imagine that he's not going to be happy that Bearcat turned in orders for Turkey. I guess it beats no orders, or maybe he authorized the switch. Not really my concern, but it may be his. But if Defiant, Orange, or Orange_1 can cover for me making maps when I cannot do it, then we should be set. I think they all have access to PSP.

Now on the civil disorder retreats. The reason that units in civil disorder should not retreat is that the rules specifically state that all CD units forced to retreat are disbanded. There's really no precedent to be setting here. Furthermore, who decides where these units retreat to? A perfect example is here to see in the Coral Sea. The Dutch fleet has three options: New Guinea to cover his own supply center, New Zealand to take a Mexican supply center, or Queensland to take an English supply center. While there is no 'retreat to enemy SC' rule, let's for the sake of argument assume there was. Which enemy does the retreating civil disorder unit retreat to? After all England and Mexico are both enemies of Holland right now. Why does Holland choose arbitrarily to punish Mexico here? And why wouldn't Holland retreat to his own SC? The reason that the civil disorder units go off the board is to avoid these very circumstances.

Incidentally, there are rules for disbanding civil disorder units as well, which I imagine we'll soon face as well. The thing is, that unless Holland and France are going to be played by someone, it's rather irrelevant whether their units retreat or not. With the rigidity of the current alliance structure, I can't see anyone wanting to play Holland, and certainly not France. These nations have been the world's punching bags since before the positions were abandoned.

SnowFire, I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt here, but there are established game rules that govern this situation. I know that issued my orders based on the rules of Diplomacy. I can't speak to Gerwald or Orange_1's plans, but I doubt that either of them would have left supply centers open to retreating units.

[SnowFire]

Oh. Didn't know that.

Well, we've got a problem then. It's not that I have a problem doing the maps, it's just that MS Paint and the fill tool work a lot better on large maps with lots of space, not a map like this where each territory in Europe contains roughly 5 pixels. Plus this is a map where it really helps to have a foreground and a background, like PSP lets you do.

So does anybody else want to volunteer to help lighten the load from RUFFHAUS? Otherwise, you'll have to make do with some ugly scratchings on top of this map.

Edit: Almost forgot, thanks for the move corrections. I knew them in my head, just forgot to mark it up on the otherside.

Assuming that French and Dutch units (civil disorder) are allowed to make retreats, which isn't how I understood the rules, but...

Why shouldn't they? More to the point, it sets a good precedent. Now it's unlikely we'll have replacements this game, but in many other games, there will be a replacement. Often, after a turn of civil disorder, some of your important units will have been dislodged... how would a replcament feel if these units decided to moronically retreat OTB, especially if it would have been viable position otherwise without these crucial units at the front disintegrating?

Anyway, the policy I outlined in the replacements thread was retreat to enemy SCs first, then home SCs, then other places. Flip coins to break ties.

So retreat to NZE, forgot that would be possible. That means one less build for Mexico.

[RUFFHAUS 8]

SnowFire and Dip 50 players: I made a map for the Fall 1870 turn, but I cannot commit to doing this full time. MDr was creating the map with his adjudication and I had agreed to host it on my geocities account for him. I'm not sure if this was clear or not when SnowFire agreed to take over the game.

http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/IMPERIAL/F1870.gif

A few comments/questions/etc:

Assuming that French and Dutch units (civil disorder) are allowed to make retreats, which isn't how I understood the rules, but....

Dutch A La Paz retreats to Goya?
Dutch F Coral Sea has retreat options of New Guinea, New Zealand, or Queensland (which?)
French A OLI retreats to Paraguay?

Austrian A Piedmont - Marseilles (bounces)
English A Karachi - Bandar (bounces 2v2)
Turkish A Aden (unordered)
Turkish A HDR - Oman (bounces 1v1)

Please check for accuracy.

[Defiant]

President Ruffhaus VIII,
I wanted to keep the b!tching to the other site where related, however, bring those 9 rowboats to the coast of China and watch how fast you will see them sink!
You ain't nothing without your little Mexican buddy! And we have seen what he really thinks of the CSA.

[Defiant]

President Ruffhaus VIII is drunk again on the moonshine.

[RUFFHAUS 8]

Emperor Defiant...