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**Victor Galis** · November 2, 2001, 23:54

Build A Mos... yeah, real useful, now that the game is over

**VGR** · November 3, 2001, 04:30

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Build A Mos... yeah, real useful, now that the game is over

isn't it ?!!? ;-)

Well, the diversion in Spain/Portugal worked out 8-)

This won't be my preferred game, facing a strange Germany lieing all the time... At least he won't have Moskow ;-)

He may feel lucky to have a country so "hedgedog-able" as his, this made the difference with poor abandoned defensive coalition Turkey&Austria-Hungarya

The Italian traitor may also feel lucky that the game ends now ;-)

see ya,

VGR

**Stefu** · November 3, 2001, 12:44

Right, I want to do one of those post-game thingies.

In the start of the game, I sent feelers of alliances with Germany and England, knowing that two of the powers would evntually ally against the third. Unfortunately, the third power was me. Things looked pretty bleak for a moment, but luckily, both Germany and England sent offers of help. I chose Germany, mainly because Snowfire's offer had been incredibly smug (using Godwin's law to 'prove' I had to trust him!) and I felt Snowy needed a lesson in Dip humility. The alliance with Germany worked sweet, and I pushed to Belgium and Venice, and eventually to Edinburgh, with German help.

While in Venice, I began to feel Turkey was going to stab me, and tried to convince Austria to not support such attack. No such luck - Turkey took Venice. Not for long, though - Germany agreed to my plan to get rid of Turkish Venice oppression. Sadly, this halted my plans to conquer Italy, and those were further halted by having to war against Turkey and Turkey's final diversion at Spain. With German help I advanced at Trieste and Serbia, as I had convinced Germany he'd profit from having an ally in the second round, if we'd both get there. So, thanks to Germany, I managed to save myself from almost certain death and go for the second place. :b for Sahib.

**Stefu** · November 4, 2001, 11:24

Anyone else got stories to trade?

**VGR** · November 4, 2001, 13:05

Originally posted by Stefu
as I had convinced Germany he'd profit from having an ally in the second round, if we'd both get there.

Sahib !!! Remember what I wrote to you yesterday (that you deprived me INTENTIONALLY of the finals by supporting France/Stefu up to the extent of going to Serbia, which was unnecessay TO YOU to win the CURRENT GAME comfortably), and you denied ???

That's a SHAME.

This way of playing a game with considerations of "teams", "rounds", "and if that guy of the other team had one point less than me, given that in game B that's the reverse, this would allow us to..." or "he screwed me in that other game, so I'll ally against him in this one..." is bullsh.t ! Bullsh.t in Diplomacy ! Have you never played roleplaying games ?

That's not the spirit of the game at all, and it's not fair play.

I will never play again with Sa.hi(b) and Stefu, that's clear.

PS : I really don't care about going to the finals, I just wanted a fair game play of Diplomacy, that is 'starting in Winter 1900 and conquer Europe' and nothing more, and certainly not "play in a way to select your next round's pals".

**RUFFHAUS 8** · November 4, 2001, 17:57

ADCT 2001 Game A Fall 1909 Retreats

Turkish A Serbia retreats to Bulgaria

Final Map:

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http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/ADCT01A/F09.GIF

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**RUFFHAUS 8** · November 4, 2001, 18:07

Final Standings, (supply centers):

GERMANY (13) 43 points (30+13)
FRANCE (10) 24 points (14+10)
TURKEY (8) 16 points (8+8)
AUSTRIA-HUNGARY (1) 2.333 points ([4/3]+1)
ITALY (1) 2.333 points ([4/3]+1)
RUSSIA (1) 2.333 points ([4/3]+1)
ENGLAND (0) 0 points

I hope that any talk of crossgaming (carying specific favors or grudges from game to game) is sarcastical and not real. Each game should be played on it's own merit.

**Sahib** · November 4, 2001, 19:24

Could somebody please explain to me how you could call it crossgaming when I promise France (in my game) I´d help him into the final in return for his help against England and Italy? It all happened in one game, no other game involved, no considerations outside the game. I fail to see the moral high ground that from wich you argue, Vince. And this will also be my last post in this matter, it starts to annoy me, frankly.

**SnowFire** · November 4, 2001, 23:56

I don't have time for a full EOG at the moment, but Stefu... don't delude yourself. It wasn't your choice to make, about how you "chose" Germany as an ally. You were hoping ONE of us would break. If my offer had been real and Germany had stayed true to our original alliance, than you wouldn't have "chosen" me anymore than you "chose" Germany.

And while you may call it smug, I also call it sound. I would have done the same thing in your position that I recommended. Godwin's law is frankly true in Diplomacy. Check out Sengoku for an example, I trusted Oda even though I knew it wasn't likely he could be trusted because if he was lying, I was screwed anyway. As it happened, Oda was lying, and I was lying. I didn't "prove" it, I merely said it was the best option.

I also sincerely hope no cross-gaming was done. There's playing the time-limit, which is reasonable, but I hope that any promises of aid in later games are ignored.

Anyway, the long and the short of my EOG is one move:
F Swe-Bla

I had needless to say asked that Germany withdraw from Sweden, and if he had played F Swe H, I would have gone with my original French offers against Germany. Which were true to a degree Stefu, stabbing Germany with you was an option I was going to do if I felt that I could trust you more than Sahib.

Anyway, that move stuck Germany in absolutely perfect position to stab me, and frankly due to nervous breakdown I did nothing about it. I was going nuts at the time due to repeated stabs and loss of allies in other games and too much work in the real world and for whatever insane reason I decided that if I stabbed a true ally in this game by accident, I would quit Diplomacy forever. Plus Sahib is East German and while he speaks English perfectly fluently, I figured that was something else to give him the benefit of the doubt on. So while I knew that if I was in Germany's position I'd be ridiculously tempted to remove England as a threat from the game at once, I did nothing.

Anyway, the entire game revolved around that one year, as far as I'm concerned. I have to admit I incorrectly gauged what would occur afterwards: I expected Sahib to brutally stab France afterwords and go on to solo, but he didn't. Maybe I slowed him down too much or he got too caught up in Austria, but no matter. More importantly, Stefu didn't buy that Germany would do it, and he had apperantly decided "to teach me a lesson in Dip humility" this game, so I couldn't get him to team up with me against Germany, whom I felt sure to solo unless England and France immediately checked him. I was right to a degree- I still think Germany was easily in the most powerful position this game, and France would have been better off if we both hit Germany immediately after he stabbed me. But that didn't happen, so I was left with trying to throw more centers to France instead of Germany in an effort to balance the game out, mostly failing.

Anyway, congratulations to Sahib. I can assure you that I intended to go through with the full-game alliance you offered at the beginning of the game had you not stabbed me- especially if you had not stabbed me when you could have, actually. But I certainly hold no grudge against you, because stabbing me worked well for you too. This game clearly had your lucky star on it, most of the choices you had to make were win-win as far as I was concerned.

As much as it might seem I'm bitter against France, I'm not. I still don't buy that Germany stabbed me due to your efforts, but hey, it did help you out, and I can certainly understand why you didn't exactly want to trust me as a potential ally after Germany's stab, since I sent you all that false mail before about our "alliance." Ah well. I will say that the only lesson in Dip humility I learned was that the next time somebody who has guts does a misplayed move, assume it's intentional.

Anyway, good luck to all who advance to the final.

Hmm, this did turn into a full EOG type thing. Oh well.

**SnowFire** · November 5, 2001, 00:04

dp.

**VGR** · November 5, 2001, 03:00

Originally posted by Sahib
Could somebody please explain to me how you could call it crossgaming when I promise France (in my game) I´d help him into the final in return for his help against England and Italy? It all happened in one game, no other game involved, no considerations outside the game.

Wrong : "the final" is a concept clearly out of the running current game - it's the NEXT game - , so it's true that both of you played "crossgame".
I'm annoyed too.

**Sahib** · November 5, 2001, 03:50

GERMAN EOG:

first and foremost, thanks to Ruffhaus for GMing. You always dwarf my own efforts as a GM, you´re just so amazingly efficient. It made the game even more fun. And yes, it was fun for me. Ok, I won, but I guess I would have enjoyed it even had I been at the recieving end. Thanks to all of you for what I think was a good game.

Now, what happened? In the beginning I struck a deal with Snowfire (England) that we hit France, wich we did. Believe it or not, but initially I ´had intendet to stay with EG for a long time (perhaps even till the end) What made me change my mind was when I realized that at some point soon England would grow bigger then me (I think that was fall 1902) and that I would have a hard time to make the final against a strong England with one of the best Apolytoners at the helm. So I considered my options and told Stefu that he should order, I think it was Gas-Par? I just told him: do it and I promise you that you´ll not rue it once.

Unfortunately I totally screwed up my own stab with a misorder. As a result England lost only one dot to me instead of two. And that left him in position to defend the north sea. At that point I hated myself (side not to Snowie: the misorder one year earlier was intended) At this point of the game I was VERY afraid of EF. Snowie is right that France would have emerged the strongest power out of such a conflict. So, I promised him paradise, so to speak. I said: "stay with me and I promise you that you´ll be second or we will even finish equal. Stay with me and you´ll reach the final" I added some sets of moves that gave Stefu a clear picture of the next years with gains for him in Italy. England was supposed to be mine.

Yet these gains did not come like planned. Again I misordered and Stefu did not get what he deserved. I must give him credit for keeping faithful nontheless. At one point I offered him english SCs as well, just to make sure he´d stay my ally.

In the east I tried (and succeded I think) to play R and T against each other. At this time Turkey had played some excellent moves that would have given him Mos before I could get there. I decided to end my conflict with Russia and helped him to fight of Turkey. I did this until my french ally was positioned to enter the anti-turkish campaign and stabbed Russia again. This time it was clear that I would beat Turkey to Mos. And indeed, till the very end he could not take it and spend a LOT of wasted effort to keep me from taking it. This part of my game worked the best, I was very contend with my eastern moves.

Well, that leaves only the question: why didn´t I stab France? I must say I considered it briefly. But what would I have gained? More dots, what for? I was already sure of making the finals and I was also sure that I would win the game. When I considered what a stab would bring, I came to the conclusion that I could not get the solo and that settled it: no reason to stab = no stab.

Thanks again for an entertaining game!
Sascha

**VGR** · November 5, 2001, 05:03

Turkey's EOG

Originally posted by Sahib
GERMAN EOG:

Thanks to all of you for what I think was a good game.

Thank you Sahib for such a good game

Thanks again for an entertaining game!
Sascha

Oh yeah, thanks again !

My EOG is available here : http://www.multimania.com/diplotjtf/EOG/page.html

enjoy !

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ADCT 2001 Game A Fall 1909

ADCT 2001 Game A Fall 1909

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