Announcement

**RUFFHAUS 8** · June 3, 2001, 23:55

ADC Dip 51 South American Supremacy, Game Standings/Supply Center Count - 1836 (Fall); 38 Supply Centers Total, Solo Victory Requires Ownership of 20 Supply Centers Legend: COUNTRY - Present Leader/Former Leader (number of centers held) * Home Supply Centers listed in CAPS.

BRAZIL (10)
SAO PAULO, RIO DE JANIERO, SALVADOR
Parana, Montevideo, Cumana, Asuncion (Pa), Concepcion (Pa), Buenos Aries (A), Corrienties

COLOMBIA (10)
BOGATA, CALI, CARTEGENA,
Islas Galapagos, Maricaibo (V), Panama, Manuas (Br), Quito, Caracas (V), Angostura

BOLIVIA (7)
LA PAZ, ANTOFAGASTA
Santa Cruz, Arica, Potosi, Maranhao, Lima (Pu)

CHILE (6)
SANTIAGO, VALPARISO
Patagonia, Punta Arenas, Islas Juan Fernandez, Islas Malvinas

PERU (3) Gerwald
TRUJILLO
Arquiris Indigenous Territory, Iquitos

ARGENTINA (2) Iain Lindley
CORDOBA, SALTA

PARAGUAY (1)
Rio Grande de Sul

VENEZUELA (0) Eliminated 1839

**Dr. Nick** · June 4, 2001, 11:58

A retreat OTB.

That means I can build now, correct?

Sahib, die die die!!!

**RUFFHAUS 8** · June 4, 2001, 12:21

Well, yes in theory right now you have a build, Hogfather. BUT Berzerker has a retreat to make from Minas Gerias, and since two of your centers are open to retreat into, I wouldn't hold out much hope on getting that build. However, stranger things have happened.

**SnowFire** · June 4, 2001, 14:22

The Paraguayan spies laugh darkly after having recently intercepted the latest Argentinian transmission.

Actually, in all seriousness, while I would say that Brazil does have a slight edge over the other powers, this is mostly offset because the way the map is set-up strongly encourages a Paraguayan-Argentian alliance to stop Brazil. If it isn't biased for Brazil, it's definitely biased against Argentina stabbing Paraguay, because it gets much tougher to hold off Brazil without those extra units (especially since Brazil can get a jump on conquering Paraguay while the units are busy fighting off Argentina too). It also means that a stab by Chile is disastrous.

If Paraguay & Argentina team up, then in my calculations before the game, Brazil will be pushed back unless it completely ignores the north and throws everything it has at the South.

Well, spilt milk now. We shall have our revenge as we tour fabulous Atlantic beaches! Bwahahahaha!

**Berzerker** · June 5, 2001, 03:31

Congrats Sahib!

Hogfather, OTB means off the board. You'll get the hang of this game, it takes one to get used to the mechanics (lying, lol).

Bolivia (otherwise known as one of Colombia's stepping stones to South American Supremacy) retreats to Rio de Janeiro

That gives me 2 builds I believe, yay.

**RUFFHAUS 8** · June 5, 2001, 09:36

ADC Dip 51 South American Supremacy Fall 1839 Retreats

PRESS:

(none)

ORDERS:

ARGENTINA (Iain Lindley)

F Buenos Aires retreats OTB

BOLIVIA (Berzerker)

A Minas Gerias retreats to Rio de Janiero

BRAZIL (Hogfather)

A Angostura retreats OTB

CHILE (Chazzy)

COLOMBIA (Sahib)

PARAGUAY (Snowfire)

PERU (Gerwald)

VENEZUELA (Defiant)

MAP:

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GM COMMENTS:

We say goodbye to our first player. Defiant, it was nice knowing you. You got smashed between the Colombian and Brazilian juggernauts. Ouch. Thanks for playing the position out.

Winter 1839 adjustments will be due Thursday, June 7, 23:59 EST. Spring 1840 orders will be due Monday, June 11, 23:59 EST.

As always, please check for accuracy.

ADJUSTMENTS DUE:

ARGENTINA - Disband 1
BOLIVIA - Build 2
BRAZIL - No Change
CHILE - No Change
COLOMBIA - Build 2
PARAGUAY - No Change
PERU - Disband 1
VENEZUELA - No Change

**Defiant** · June 5, 2001, 09:57

Well, my EOG, I just want to say that Ven position SUCKS!

When I thought we could take our countries and I wanted the Columbian Drug Lord province but Ruffhaus, in his wisdom, said, "na, I think I will make this a random drawing". Gee, thanks.

If I would have gotton Columbia, I would have done nothing different than what Sahib did, BTW, did you know that Sahib is German for Stabber.

I really think in order to make Ven competitive you need to give her one more unit, I could have bounced Sahib in the first Spring but I don't think it would have changed the outcome, just a very weak position, like Mexico in the world maps.

Enough whining, I do want to thank Ruffhaus for Gm'ing this game, he did, as usual a great job

and thanks for all the rest of the players for their participation.

**MDR** · June 5, 2001, 11:27

Mexico in World Maps

Actually, I've seen more than my fair share of unmodified Imperial games (1, 2, & 3) where Mexico takes out the rest of the Americas and becomes a serious threat to win the game. However, I won't argue with you over the 20th Century Mexico. I'm still working on redesigning that little problem.

**Defiant** · June 5, 2001, 12:33

MDR,
As I have only played your maps in 20th and Imperial, the only time I have seen Mexico doing OK, is in Imperial3 with Gerwald, all the other times, in 20th, they are a quick victum, in Domination I gave Mexico an extra unit, but to no avail, I am curious on how you solve that problem, might be to just let it be a neutral state, but once you are done, I will be willing to play it.

**MDR** · June 5, 2001, 12:52

A possible new line up in 20th would be this:

UK (& Empire)
France (& Empire)
Holland\Belgium (& Empires)
Germany
Italy
Turkey
USSR
Mao Tse Tung's China
Chiang Kai Chek's China
Japan
USA
Columbia
Argentina

It'd be historically accurate, and I'd add in the rule that you can build off of any Home SC just like I did for Imp3. I pull Brazil & Add Argentina...it gives more breathing room on an already decided continent. Belgium\Holland wouldn't be a major power in Europe, but it would add more political intrigue in Africa and make sure that the Pacific Rim isn't outright gobbled up by a greedy British Empire. I'd also add an extra dot or so to Canada to keep America from getting too strong too fast.

As for Mexico in Imperial...in Imp1 & Imp2, it can beat the CSA to New Mexico & sneak San Francisco out from under the USA. Without the added SCs in the Caribbean (sp?), the CSA is easy meat for a Mexico that's picked up Central America, Columbia, Peru, & possibly Venezuela. It'll also be able to scrap with Japan in the early game over Hawaii. In Imp3, I tried to make it less of a threat to North America by aiming it more torwards Central & South America where it can pick up some early gains without equalling the CSA in size.

**RUFFHAUS 8** · June 5, 2001, 13:25

Defiant, Mexico got slaughtered in Domination because Talon isn't playing Diplomacy. It's about all he can do to get his orders in. He certainly isn't negotiation with anyone. Add to that, the fact that he was allied with Boshko's Colombia, and then immediately stabbed when Iain took over. The bottom line is that there are tough draws in Diplomacy, but I too have seen Mexico on the verge of soloing on an imperial map.

It comes down to how you play, who your opponents are, and how you interact with them. If you try to play Mexico in Imperia,l or Venezuela or Paraguay in South American Supremacy without allies, you're gonna get whacked hard and fast. It's much the same as playing Austria or Germany on the standard map. If you have no allies, then you have 5-6 enemies. And no one can survive that. It's not really my place to criticize play as GM, and that's not my purpose here with respect to Venezuela or Paraguay. It did appear that neither nation had any allies though.

Of note the map designer is considering some adjustments in the vicinity of both nations to make them more viable. And I think it will help, but ultimately it boils down to diplomacy.

**MDR** · June 5, 2001, 13:51

I agree that Mexico either needs to be fixed or removed in 20th. It's a hard country to play for even experienced plyers. The numbers are stacked against it. Honestly, when I first designed that part of the map, I tried to balance out Mexico & Canada vs. Mainland USA (including Alaska & Panama). The problem is, what if you can't set up a deal with Britain to contain the US? Also, what happens if Columbia decides to invade Central America for _any_ reason? The position is a good one, but I could not see giving it more power than I did. It certainly wasn't on par with Germany in the 1930s. I needed something to keep the US from running hogwild on the continent, but it turns out Mexico wasn't it. Maybe adding an extra dot would've given Mexico the punch it needed to survive on an already decided continent. That certainly helped Austria in Imperial 2 and Imperial 3. Of course, it'd probably be better to turn it into a nuetral SC or something. I already know what I'd do in that region if I pulled the country.

However...Ruffhaus, you're one of the better players on this site. What do you think you can do with Mexico as it stands in 20th Century?

As for Talon? No comment.

**Defiant** · June 5, 2001, 14:33

Ruffhaus,
If Mexico isn't so weak why is it always the last one picked up, nobody wants it and why, and when I say nobody that means good players also. In 754, you had a qualified player and he got burned pretty quickly, and unless you have a brother who doesn't want to stab you for the hell of it, you will become the victum. Most of the time it doesn't matter who you are allied with, IT is a very vulnerable position and more times than not will be attacked early and severely. At least it has in almost every game I have seen. Diplomacy can only go so far with those kinds of countries, they simply are not on the same kind of playing field for negociations or tactics.
In S. American if I would have bounced Sahib in the first round I would only have delayed the inevitable, I tried to get the only alliance I could in Hogfather and again the opportunity was to great not to stab and he did. Then it is just a matter of time.

**MDR** · June 5, 2001, 14:52

Now, I have seen Mexico in Imperial do some good stuff. It can work by either blitzing the CSA or picking up enough SCs in south america to hold off a combined CSA\USA assault. The key to how the Americas will be decided rests on what the CSA and the USA do in the early game. They're either allied & go in opposite directions (until one stabs the other), or Mexico will end up picking off the West Indies and a chunk of the CSA. Now, how far the CSA gets is dependant on how well Mexico can defend himself. Then you get to have Mexico make deals with Brazil, England, or France...any one of which is a good choice.

Check out dip 622 (a dipknight game) or I'll email the final positions on the first Imp1 game I ran. Ruff will verify that one. He picked it up as a replacement for Turkey.

As for why it gets picked last...I think it's more of a desicion on size...a three dot power looks like nothing compared to the 8 and up group. Mexico's postion is possibly the best on that side of the map. It's got access to both North & South America, and it has SCs on both oceans. It's sort of like a smaller Turkey.

Unfortunately, some countries just manage to consistantly survive. You tend to have one European power (usually Prussia), One African Power (Usually Turkey), One American Power (CSA or Mexico)...possibly two (Brazil can hang on with a few SCs), One Asian Power (China), Possibly one Pacific Power (Holland). Sometimes the Pacific is split between China and whoever owns the Americas. No one leaves Britain and France alone long enough to let them make any lasting impression on the map. If the Asian players are smart, the British and French colonies are destroyed, and that leaves a Europe spanning Prussia to push them out of their traditional home SCs.

Announcement

ADC Dip 51 South American Supremacy Fall 1839

ADC Dip 51 South American Supremacy Fall 1839

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