Dip 23, Colonial Diplomacy Ends in 3 Way Draw Between Holland, Japan, and France

[RUFFHAUS 8]

A call for peace has gone out, and a unanimous decision amongst the remaining powers has ended things in a three way draw between Holland (17), Japan (17), France (14), with Russia (10) surviving the game as a non-participating member of the draw.

EOG statements welcomed and encouraged. I may make a few comments at the end, but as a GM I feel that the game is for the players to play however they wish. And there are always things behind the scenes that GMs are not privy to. So I'm interested in your thoughts, players past and present.

Anyway thanks to all for playing our first (to my knowledge) version of Colonial Diplomacy here at Apolyton, and a hearty well done to the victors!


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by RUFFHAUS 8 (edited May 12, 2001).]</font>

[Defiant]

Russia's EOG:
This Russian EOG isn't as successful as the other Russian EOG I just recently had to do.
First, thanks to Ruffhaus in continuing to GM this game after it was abandoned by Polaris, as usual it was done on a timely basis and without problems, nice job!

Also, thanks to Hogfather, ScottF, Victor, Snowie and as much of Midshipman that I saw in this game for playing and not holding up the game with NMRs, it ran smoothly.

I took over Russia after Polaris screwed it over and right away ScottF was on the horn asking for an alliance but it was too quick and I knew he wanted no alliance with Russia but to invade the mother land. On the other hand Hogfather who was screwed by Polaris wanted some of this territories back and I conceded to him, primarily cause he could take them back if he wanted to. Once ScottF showed his true colors, took one turn, then Hogfather and I formed an alliance to try and slow Japan down but I really screwed the pooch for Hogfather when I took sick and NMR'd one turn. Hogfather wanted me to support him into one of the provinces to kick ScottF out and I didn't submit any moves and he got ran over and that continued. I apologize to everybody for my NMR and especially to Hogfather.

I made some ground against Midshipman who was being gang raped by everybody, including me to try and gain as many SC's as I could to defend Russia, cause it was clear it was going to be a 3-1 nation battle against Russia, nice odds, eh?

Once I saw the writing on the wall I tried to communicate to Victor that if he was interested, Snowfire's door was open in India for a nice stab which would help me out and help out Victor cause he would gain quite a few SC's. It is my understanding that this is a game of war and stabbing is an intregal part of it and to play to solos if at all possible. Here is the very enlightened Victor with his answer, and I quote, "I don't stab my friends". I am under the impression that we are all community friends here and we voluntarily play these games and we know stabbing is a part of them, so Victor, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!. France and Russia were no threat to each other but we were in a good position to help one another and in doing so help each other. These games were not intended to be played to draws, they occur, yes and in some cases righfully so, but this game had stab written all over it and the gains could have been great.
There were no stalemated lines, no threat of a current soloist and the game wasn't so big it was overwhelming. For example, in Alien it appears to be stalemated, but Iain could easily stab me and remove my existance but in that same stab could cause Snowie to run the board, Snowie has overwhelming units but in this game it is not stalemated and there is no current threat of a solo. What should have happened in this game if Victor wasn't going to stab Snowie, is Snowfire and ScottF should have finished me off and while Victor is sitting over in his non-growth coutry, waiving builds, waiting for the end to come, should have been the next target and in the process if either ScottF or Snowie got a distinct advantage and could be on a run to a solo, like Snowie in Alien and the other two stalemated him, then I could understand a draw, even if Victor only had three units left. If Victor's units are in critical positions and to stab him by the other allie could cause Snowie the solo, then so be it. Victor gets a part draw with 3 units.

I only picked this game up cause Ruffhaus asked me too and in the spirit of keeping games running I felt is was my responsibility to help. Once I took over, if was quite clear the three amigos were only interested in one thing, form our three ring circus with only us drawing and play it out until it happens. Not such a tough feat to accomplish when you have the three biggest powers at that time to setting the rules to the end with no chance of swaying one against the other.

[Scott F]

I don't even recall ever bringing up the idea of attacking France with Snowfire. The idea was absurd, since Snowfire said he would vote down any draw that didn't include France. That obviously ruled out annihilating France, and a quick and successful surprise attack, even by both Japan and Holland, would have still resulted in a long and protracted conflict in Southeast Asia. Such a conflict could only benefit the Russian, as France had waived a great many builds and would go for some time into the attack without having to disband units.

My opening went pretty well. A one center stab of China was played off as a necessity, and good relations were maintained in exchange for support against the Russians - support that was constantly haggled over until the Chinese lost their remaining usefulness. For a while there, Japan was really vulnerable, but the holding action around the Philippines and the breakout from Korea prevented any tremendous disaster. When the breakout occurred, I was able to reinforce the Pacific Ocean front with enough fleets to force a stalemate line, at least a temporary one. A deal with the French to kill the remaining Chinese prevented it from being broken for the time being.

From there it was a matter of marching west and south until the bulk of China was absorbed. Erwin played China well, at least on the battlefield, and held off the Japanese armies several times. Later on, the Russians managed to do the same several times until Berzerker's unrelated mention of boxing analogies to why supports could be broken when the supporting unit was itself supported gave me an idea to grab the last Chinese bastion at Tashkent. From there it was a hop, skip, and a jump to Moscow, with a few pauses along the way.

I must also compliment Victor, Defiant, Snowfire, and Erwin Rommel for good and reliable play throughout the game.

[Dr. Nick]

Well, this was a very interesting game. I grabbed China when nothing else was left and drew out a nice plan. A non-agression pact signed with Warvoid as Russia and Scott as Japan allowed me free play with Britain and crush France while they were still small. After that, WV and myself had important plans of Asian Domination... but when the first GM dropped out (can't even remember who it was) all went wrong. Ever since Japan incursed into Shanghai relations froze over, but the shift in GM and players meant that old friends became bitter enemies and old enemies were neutral, meaning that all my armies where in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

After Russia and Japan stroke out, I set up a stalemate line along the northern provinces and this allowed me to deal with Middy's "crusade" against the Chinese, which evetually gained me control of Northern India.

When Polaris dropped out, Defiant allowed me free play into Tashkent, seeing that it would be the only chance to help crumbling China. Now, peace with Britain and Russia signed, China had sufficient manpower to turn on Japan alone. When the frogs decided to traverse Canton. The Dragon Emperor could take it no longer, so war preparations were written out against France with Britain's aid and with Russian support, the northern provinces would be reconquered by stabbing the evil Japanese. When all seemed well, organised, and ok, the Dragon Emperor was forced to take leave, and, unable to debrief his replacement (I really asked for the turns to be postponed, but no one listened! ) My poor replacement had no idea as to what to do and unfortunately, although he made a great job considering the poor information he had, everything went wrong. My return saw that the gains into IndoChina were undone and the French were traversing the Southern Provinces and all the north was painted Green. The Dragon Emperor had a fit and started attacking nations at random after the fall of Peking.

Finally, when the Russians made the Emperor gain some sense, a retreating defence line was set up to delay the Japanese, French and Dutch advance allowing the Russians time to plunder the Ottoman Empire at their will, as well as the former British African Colonies.

In good time, the Russians seemed able to establish a defensive line which would halt the Japs, Frogs and Dutch. Peace at hand.

Congratulations, gentlemen, this has been a splendid game and a fine learning experience for the rookie Dragon Emperor who was still learning the ropes. I thank you all, the lessons I have learnt I hope never to forget (like "never trust Scott" ) and I hope that someday we may fight on more even odds.

Anyone want a cup of cha?

*flourishes teapot and dish of crumpets*
[This message has been edited by El Hogfather (edited May 12, 2001).]

[Victor Galis]

Much is explained by the fact that I would have had to abandon the game if it had lasted another month (actually this applies to all my games).

[Defiant]

Victor,
You had a very strong position, easily could have found a replacement

[Victor Galis]

Yes, but then I would have gotten no points, which would have been worse than being eliminated points-wise, plus when you're in a three-way alliance, pissing one of your allies off, is generally a bad move. Not to mention that the alliance existed due to my refusal to help either Japan or the Netherlands against the other. I had no hope of soloing, and I don't like 2-way draws, they are generally very risky (last turn stabs can cause solos for one side).

[SnowFire]

Excellent game all!

Okay, I'm Holland. First order of business is Britain. The Java Sea is my great weakness, and Singapore is right inside it. Plus Britain starts out as the largest power and must always be respected. I lie ruthlessly to Stefu of Britain and get him to move to Malaysia, and I arrange an agreement of sorts with Master on High, the current French ruler, to get support into Malaysia. But he doesn't actually move to Gulf of Siam, or more specifically he does but I think a map error showed him going to SCS. No matter now, though.

At this point, the game stalled for awhile when Polaris stopped GMing a bunch of his games. By the time it started again Midshipman was now Britain and Victor was now France. I re-established good relations with the French again and said absolutely nothing to the Brits. Luckily I guessed correctly and moved into Singapore while the Brits stalled the French a bit by moving north into Bangkok. I also had moved into Ceylon. So I had my 3 builds- all fleets.

Now, while Britain was my main current enemy and I was worried about a vengeance counterstrike, I was more worried about the Phillipines- 3 bountiful SC's right nearby. And Japan was shaping up to be a major power. I decided that Japan was my next major target. The second "year" of the game (turns were done in 2 year increments, so really the second four-year segment) I moved in to convoy my army into the Phillipines, while the French collect Manilla and the Japanese got Cebu. I also moved a fleet west to protect Ceylon, and the French helped me into Malayisa (which I had made a point of asking for. Malyasia is a MAJOR weak spot for the Dutch as well, being a way into Singapore as well as the Java Sea).

Luckily for me, Britain was tied up invading China, and Japan was tied up attacking Asia, and neither allocated sufficient forces to stop me. My fleets forced Cebu from the Japanese, and I did make a play to invade Japanese home waters but all he needed was 2 fleets to stop me. At this point I asked the French for help, but Victor was working with the Japanese to dismantle China, so I completely understood when he said no. I ended up reducing my forces there to what would be neccesary to hold a stalemate line msyelf.

By the way, I should mention to you at this point I had a rare oppurtunity. The French still controlled Manilla but had moved their fleet away. I could have taken Manilla... but I didn't. As a result, I had one of the greatest stab-proofers around- the SC held by the other guy in your territory. In other words, if Victor stabbed, he would be assured of the loss of one SC. Really quite nice. I should probably mention another thing about the nature of our little agreement. I was the sea power, Victor was the land power. This also made things difficult to stab. Victor could easily use supports from inland to foil any invasion I tried to make, and Victor simply didn't have the fleets to break through my line should he want to stab (and even if he did, by the end I already had a stalemate fleet line set up). This is partially in response to Defiant's claim that "this game had stab written all over it and the gains could have been great." I would have written about this anyway because one of the major elements of my strategy was making it impossible for Japan to stab me and always in France's interests not to stab me, so I find Defiant's claim a bit... surprising. Yeah, India was a bit weak, but I easily could have put the war with you on hold for awhile to go clean up India. Remember, I had lots of fleets to convoy armies around with, and both of our homelands were completely locked up.

Anyway, while the whole Phillipines thing was going on, I pushed into India, which really does not get you as many gains as you might think (a measly 3 SC's in India proper, though Karachi mine as well be part too, bringing the total up to 4 SC's). I began convoying armies in. My one regret is that I couldn't save the Ottomans sooner- on one hand, I was in favor of the Russians as they slowed down the Japanese, on the other, I wanted the Ottomans to slow down the British, and the Russians were helping the British by attacking Turkey. So I slowly convoyed in armies and slogged across on the long road to Dehli. While I was doing this, China was rapidly being pushed west, France got the bountiful SC basket in SE Asia, and Japan was advancing on Russia. The prospects for a 3-way draw looked very good, since it was pretty near impossible for one of us to stab the other (our alliance was a bit too-well built to allow a solo). Russia was all that was left that could stop us. Luckily though, there really wasn't a good stalemate line to hold, and had the game gone on, it could fairly easily have been pierced both in Central Asia (begining with the conquest of Bokhara, after that it would be easy), as well as in the Middle East (though it would take some time to martial the proper forces, and it wouldn't be an assured force- it would be having 2 or 3 sets of moves to play, and randomly alternating between them until Russia stuck up the wrong defense). If Russia had chosen to fight it out, it's possible one of us would have soloed, but as it was, it was far too uncertain who would get the lion's share of the Russian SC's. Hence it was better to play it safe and go with the draw, not to mention we had played pretty honorably the whole time.

Good game all, I highly enjoyed this Colonial map. I'd be willing to do it again.

-Governor General SnowFire, ruler from Cairo to Dehli to Batavia

[RUFFHAUS 8]

Well, some good EOG commentary. Thanks, people!

I have a few comments, and I make them rather reluctantly. First of all I think that replacements as SnowFire alluded to really shook the game up a bit in terms of the alliance structure. We had several of them too. And then NMRs and replacements took their toll on Russia and China. Britain was a tall order for Middy to fill, and his style of play seemed to make him a target of everyone. The main beneficiary of this was Holland, not that Snowie didn't earn his wings here either. I think he could have soloed this game for sure, whereas France and Japan could not have. As a GM is't tough to watch and understand why games end in draws when no real stalemate exists. But I have offered and accepted draws in similar circumstances as well. And I understand that sometimes a good alliance is just not worth wrecking, even for a crack at a solo.

On the other hand I feel terrible for Defiant, who took on a terrible assignment in Russia as a favor to me to keep the game going. For a third party perspective it appeared as if there was nothing he could possibly have done to change anyone's mind about the course of the game. And that is rather frustrating, because the game is supposed to be about negotiation and DIPLOMACY as well as tactical manuevering. Still, I understand why it's hard to alter the course of a locomotive. But it also seems like I might as well have put Russia into civil disorder rather than replace Polaris/Napoleon/WarVoid. Defiant deserves some credit for pulling Russia's ass out of the fire and nearly getting things righted enough to force his way into the draw. My opinion is that a lack of fleets really hurt him in the south, both holding in Snowfire back, and more importantly in killing off England and Turkey who also refused to ally with anyone, preferring to get hit from both sides and elimiation to coppoeration. Again, my perspective only. And thanks to Defiant for playing out a thankless position.

I would like to compliment the play of ScottF, who is slowly coming into his own as a very fine player. Not that he was poor, ever, but he's certainly proven that he's capable of winnning a game. In this variant I think it's tough for Japan to win (solo) without getting a share in the Phillipines. As Snowfire mentioned, he had the seas bottled up early on, forcing Japan to go to land, whilre the going is mighty slow. Japan is much like England on the standard map. Any time they have more armies than fleets, it's not a good sign. Still, a very nice job by Scott.

This game was also clasic Victor. Victor took over a weak position, and negotiated peace where he could, while pounding incessantly one one opponent (China), and establishing a difficult line of defenses to breach. I thought for a while that waiving the builds would be your undoing, but I also saw the merit of keeping Holland at ease, and "banking" units in case of a stab. Victor carved himself a little empire between Japan and holland and made himself virtually stab-proof, because of the influence that he could thro the other way. Only a combined H/J stab would have really been a serious option, and the dynamics of the three way alliance make that rather hard to rub out one party.

Thanks to all players again. I think the Colonial experiment was a good one, and another game is definately in order for the future.

[Victor Galis]

Ah... I should probably write an EOG too:

I inheritted a weak position. I don't think that after one season there could have been a weaker power, especially with a fleet in the wrong place. The most I could force was one build, and I had many larger neighbors. With the memory of Midshipman's Silent Dip EOG still fresh in my mind (where he explained his goal was to piss everyone off), I knew I wasn't getting Bangkok. I was approached by Snowfire who asked/offered a war on Britain, which I immediately agreed to. I made the same suggestion to China, but he didn't really do much until England forced his hand. I also began talks with Japan about taking out China. That was a long term plan. I was afraid of Snowfire's potential fleet dominance.

A little time passed. Britain had stabbed China. I failed to warn China about this, but I relieved England of Canton on my way to Hong Kong, (I should have pointed out that Canton would be his clearly). He posted some sort of anti-French message, then he had to be removed. Hong Kong fell that next turn and England was removed from the East. The war on China began in earnest, as did the alliance with Japan.

In the meantime, each of Japan, the Netherlands, and I, had acquired a Phillipine center. When the Japanese were pushed out of theirs, they could retreat into mine or OTB. At that point, I informed Japan that I could either help him hold the line against Snowfire or that I could cause it to fall... he retreated OTB So later when Snowfire asked for help against Japan, I refused to help either side leading to a deadlocked situation. Eventually, I envisioned a three-way alliance. I don't know if I was the first to suggest it, but I was at least thinking about it before someone offered it. Once that alliance started, the game was simple... push West as fast as possible. The poor coordination of our enemies helped us.

Ah... now the parts most people focused on: the stabbing. I am by nature a player who favors draws with more than two people (two people is risky) over solos, unless some wonderful opportunity shows up, which considering I was the smallest of the three, wasn't about to happen. I built a decent defense against Japan on land, and Snowfire didn't have any fleets immediately ready to strike, so I feared stabs from neither. I was thus very happy with the way the game was going. I was very much of the opinion that the only way that things would come to blows among the allies, would be if I stabbed someone (thus mentally, I filed stabbing in the dumb things category, sorry Defiant). Snowfire, made it evidently clear that I wasn't to build any fleets, so I started waiving builds. My armies were mostly idle, so I didn't need anymore, but in the case of a stab I would have had a new fleet at least without gaining any centers. In other words, those builds were being saved for fleets in the event of a Dutch stab.