Dip 48 "Newbie" fall03

[RUFFHAUS8]

Well, it's ultimately for Sahib as the GM to say, but I think Yoav has a point here. Warvoid (Germany) supported A Kiel - Munich. Germany also ordered A Kiel to Munich. Just because Germany submitted an order for a unit that was not his, (A Kiel) wouldn't make the support from Munich invalid.

There are those that require you to cite the nationality of a foreign nation when writing support orders. And while I always do provide it, I do not require it as a GM. But that doesn't make a GM who does require it wrong.


Tough Call. Sahib, it's YOUR call!

[Sahib]

Sorry Yoav, but:

1) I explicitely required the nationality of a supported foreign unit to be stated.

2) Warvoid was clearly not supporting your unit but thought that it was indeed his own unit.

3) Therfore it cannot be argued that he CLEARLY wanted to support you and that it was just a typo on his part.

So, the resolution stands as it is.

[Sirotnikov]

Sahib, I should build 3 units!

I proved my case in an earlier post.

[Yoav]

Response to Sahib:
(Sorry for arguing this much, but I think you are being 100% unfair with me, I and another Dip pro' I've spoken to believe that there is no doubt I am correct here):

1) True, but the rulebook also explicitly required the stating of the coast you are entering with a fleet unit and you let Siro off with that. This is much more important than my case as this actually affects the action while stating the nationality has no parctical meaning. Besides, this not being an official rule makes it very easy to forget, and, if I'm not wrong, Warvoid sent the orders to your E-mail at March 10th, giving you enough time to tell him he had an unclear order as you said you usually do.
Besides all that, I say again: every time an unclearity uccured you said something like "this is a newbie game so I'll let you off this time", it happenned to Turkey once and to Italy twice, with much more messy issues, and this is if you don't count all the times you waited for players to send orders so they do not NMR while you should have technically proceeded with the game as you said you would.
I find it extremely unfair to be so hard on me (even when it's not even my fault) while you've been so easy with the others.

2+3) If I ask Warvoid to come here and stricly state that he wanted to support MY entrance into Berlin (I really feel bad about nagging him but if this is the only thing that would help), will you then be convinced?
It is clear that he has no further motives in a game he already left...

Please rethink this. I hate to say that I feel somewhat neglected here, but I just do.
[This message has been edited by Yoav (edited March 14, 2001).]

[Sahib]

1) Siro, sorry, I totally forgot your case: point proven, three builds it is.

2) Yoav: the case is differnt from Siro´s. In his case it was absolutely sure what he intended, no other possibility. Just like Mobius´moves last year.
But in your case it´s different. Warvoid sent me orders for two units, wich he believed were his. One was Ber. He clearly thought it was his OWN unit,not yours. That indicates that he did not merely forgot to state the country name of a foreign unit, but rather wanted to support no foreign unit at all, but his own.
Case denied again. Case closed! (A Mingism )

[Yoav]

I'm sorry to be such a pain in the ***, but your points are rather worng:
First of all, I assume you mean one of these was KIEL.
Second, you did not reply: if I ask Warvoid to come and clerify his intentions, would you then be convinced.
I agreed on this with him earlier. If you don't believe me, hell I'll send you the ICQ history or something. He got confused and added a move. I think you should try to be a little more understanding.

A GM shouldn't be hard or easy with players just so the game goes on as he wants it to. Try to think about it, come on. Do you really believe he meant to support his own unit in, with so little units do you really think he thought he had another one?
Hell, he didn't even plan to send orders, I told him I needed his help, then asked him what I want him to do, he agreed and asked me for your E-mail. Try to be reasonable here. Don't ruin the game because of a stupid technicality.

I will continue to annoy you until either you are convinced, or the deadline comes... but if you do not agree to let me enter Berlin know that I will be very angry and will haunt you until the very last day of your life.

[Napoleon Bonaparte II]

Yoav, shut up. Sahib does not need to be fair. He is god. I know that you, being a newbie, dont understand this. Deal with your dilemma and move on for Christ's sake. In 20th Century when Ruff stabbed me because I couldn't talk, did I complain to Du Chateau that Ruff misunderstood my intentions and to take the moves back? No. I dealt with it.

Now, please, I am sure I speak for everyone when I ask you to grow up and stop crying over one move. Thank you and goodnight.

------------------
Almighty and Resident God
The more you know the more you realize you dont know. - Shep

[Yoav]

First of all, I am not holding the game for one minute. Up until now I sent all my orders at least 3 days in advance to prevent NMR's, I sent my build as if the resolution is as it is 10 minutes after I saw it.
You on the other hand, NMR'd at least once IIRC, holding the game and twisting it. You are only still here because England decided to keep you here. Besides, just because this move would harm you doesn't mean you need to object it.

Secondly, here you yourself say that this isn't fair, that's all that matters to me. I don't really care that much about one Dip game, I care about being true and right, I'm just that type of guy.

Thirdly, I'm not crying over one move, I'm just trying to convince Sahib I'm right when he uses false information to make his decisions. I accept Sahib's decisions, I just say I find him unfair.

And finally - your example is totally irrelevant as this was a lack of relations between people, I'm sure that if you tryed harder you could have spoken to him and even if you couldn't - that's not even close to this situation. In this case a GM just cancelled an order, and I'm trying to say it was wrong of him to do so.
A GM might be God in Dip games, but that doesn't mean he can do everything because then people will stop playing in his games. I respect Sahib as a GM very much, he not arranging everything in a stupid way like many other GMs do, I'm just trying to discuss and argue the issue, quite obssesively but yet I do not do anything more than saying what I have to say.

[Sahib]

quote: Originally posted by Yoav on 03-14-2001 02:03 PM know that I will be very angry and will haunt you until the very last day of your life.

I´ll take that risk

Now, let me add this: I really believe my ruling here is rather salomonic. Instead of ruining the game, as you put it, it makes sure that nothing changes at all. You all have the same chances again next turn like you had last spring. Nothing is lost. And who knows, maybe you get Warvoid to send moves in again? If he really wanted to support you, I am sure he will do so again. Case closed! (I really mean it!)

[WarVoid]

I have to laugh, cause this is funny as all hell. LOL!

Taurus, Yoav, you both kept bugging me to death to "send Sahib this move" and "send Sahib that move". In the meantime the little net time I have is spent toiling as a webmaster elsewhere trying to do HTML programming.

So, you wanna know what I did?

Ok then.

The last person that bugged me got there moves sent to Sahib at the last minute. I believe that was Yoav but I could be mistaken because I gt so many blasted messages a night.

So sorry to both of you but Germany is gone now. The Reich is dead! Long live the head! (....it rhymed )

Have fun with the rest of the game. And don't argue about it.

[Yoav]

OK, I'll take your decision.
It's your call, and even when I think you've been really evil here, I have no other option.
I'll go think about my moves now, this would be tough as my plans were based on even scale forces, and you've changed it to a promised win for England.
By the way, Warvoid: just so I know to myself: did you mean to support my entrance to Berlin or didn't you? I mean, was the order to support "your own" entrance a typ'o or a delibirate misphrased order?

[Sirotnikov]

As I understand his message, he simply copied and pasted the moves you talked about and forgot to cut out your unit's moves.

The message body was probably something like:
Please help me attack Taurus!!! I am lost without you oh great one!
We'll do this:
Mun S A Kie -> Ber
A Kie -> Ber
And then I will rule the world! Mwahahahahaha! I could also talk Italy into letting you live some more as I am King allmighty! I am Yoav, hear me roar!!!

AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!

[Yoav]

Great theory Siro, only one small detail bugs me:
I use "PrvA to PrvB" and not "PrvA -> PrvB"

[WarVoid]

Truthfully, i've been so busy lately I don't remember what I did. It had nothing to do with being evil....

[Sirotnikov]

quote: Originally posted by WarVoid on 03-18-2001 02:24 PM Truthfully, i've been so busy lately I don't remember what I did. It had nothing to do with being evil....

Oh, come on, who are you kidding? It's Diplomacy, it has to be evil.