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**Shadowstrike** · February 18, 2001, 15:48

*looks at abandoned games sadly*

**Gerwald** · February 18, 2001, 20:59

Wow! 16 abandoned games out of 50?!? Thats not good lads. Lets make sure that those still active finish, eh?

**SnowFire** · February 18, 2001, 21:11

Some notes:
Dip 1 was GMed by a person named Porphygentius or something like that, I believe, or "Porphy" for short. Don't ask me, I joined around the time Dip 5 started.

Dip 11 was a blind game, not a Gunboat game. If anything it was the opposite because we HAD to negotiate a lot if we wanted to have eyes. Too bad the game lasted all of 2 turns.

As for the whole idea, I must admit I'm not too keen on it. What I am in favor of is giving all games a unique title (for instance, I didn't like Dip 1600's name at all; there have been multiple games played on the 1600 map but Coug was uncreative and refused to think up a more distinctive name), which is why I generally refer to Dip23 as Amatsu Diplomacy, not Colonial Diplomacy or Dip23.

Of course, I don't have a problem with numbering your game to make it distinctive, but I don't see why it should be required...

In any case, I'd be curious to hear what other people think of this.

**RUFFHAUS8** · February 18, 2001, 21:36

Shocking, SnowFire! You're not too keen on anything we do around here to improve the community. Basically if you didn't create it, it's crap. Right? Well too damn bad. These games are going to have numbers to distinguish themselves from each other. I've got no beef with the unique titles, and actually encourage them if the GM so chooses to be creative. Just like I said the first time. Having a theme to a game is a great idea. But having a unique name to a game that has no theme is rather pointless.

The purpose for numbering the games is to distinguish them from each other when no numbers are given. I think it's necessary, and therefore I will take the responsibility of maintaining it. It also gives us some perspective as to how many games we've had here at Apolyton. I do this because I care about the club, and the quality of the Diplomacy played here. I think it will help, and I don't give a rat's ass what you think.

As for Dip 1 and Dip 11 thanks for the clarification, but any game that lasted one or two turns isn't worth trying to dig up the name of a long lost GM or debating the semantics between 'blind' and 'gunboat' with you.

**SnowFire** · February 18, 2001, 21:57

Sigh...

RUFFHAUS: I'm not sure what I said to offend you. I didn't add those clarifications to insult you, merely to clear up your list. This wasn't even that big an issue to me; I just think that unique names are more aethetically pleasing and numbers are too prosaic. But it hardly makes a difference, ultimately. I was completely caught off guard by your flamethrower on this.

As for your claim that I believe that "If I didn't create it, it's crap," I don't know where to start. I enjoy Diplomacy which is why I play here. But as for actually creating things, I've done precious little (I have still not GMed a game myself), meaning that apperantly I think a lot is crap. I suppose you're drawing this statement because I didn't like your ADC ranking system, and apperantly don't like this. The reason I disliked your ADC rankings was not because I had already set up some random ranking before; it was because I'm not a fan of keeping track of every middling little NMR and thought that the rankings would promulgate the wrong kind of competition in games. And I might add that the rankings I used for the website was not of my own creation, but directly stolen from tournament methods I saw. As for the current topic of debate, I've named NONE of those previous games, so again, I don't see your logic.

This was two disagreements. I'm sorry, but I certainly hope you don't see this as a pattern.

As to your other thing:

The purpose for numbering the games is to distinguish them from each other when no numbers are given. I think it's necessary, and therefore I will take the responsibility of maintaining it. It also gives us some perspective as to how many games we've had here at Apolyton. I do this because I care about the club, and the quality of the Diplomacy played here. I think it will help, and I don't give a rat's ass what you think.

Well, I'm delighted that you don't give a rat's ass what I think, but what you propose is something for the club as a whole to decide on, not something you can add on by fiat. Look, you are not the GM of many of these games, whose ultimate responsibility it is to name the game. Remember what I was saying before about disliking the naming of Coug's game? Despite disliking it, I didn't decide to go out and rename it myself: it wasn't my game to name.

Now I'm sure you think this is a great idea and numbering all games is neccesary, this doesn't mean that all GMs should have to number their games or come to you for approval or whatever. If the club decides to number all the games, fine, but I thought you were proposing this idea for debate, not arbitrarily saying "This is the way things will be from now on."

This will hopefully be my last post here. Really, I come here for Diplomacy, not politics, and am more than content to simply sign up for games and not spend time debating acronyms and rankings and other frills.
[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited February 18, 2001).]

**LordStone1** · February 18, 2001, 22:22

Well, I'm not numbering the games. In fact, I think I was the first person to come up with a game without a number: Rocky Road Diplomacy. However, as a purpose of record-keeping, this list is a good idea, gives us a perspective on how many games we've begun and so on. For example, I never thought we had started 50 games. It's a lot when you think about it for a while.

By the way, using numbers for distinguishing similarly-titled games?? The only one I can think of is Colonization v. Civilization Diplomacy, and no one has gotten them mixed up yet...

However, this won't affect the ADC community in any way, really. It's more trivia than anything else. It's good that we have it around should we need it later. If someone starts up a game, you can simply assign them a number for record-keeping.

And Ruffhaus, you really didn't have to jump on SnowFire like that. He was merely offering constructive criticism.

In any case, thank you for doing all this work.

**Victor's DL** · February 18, 2001, 22:24

I believe Dip 7 was GMed by Zhakiago.

**RUFFHAUS8** · February 19, 2001, 00:45

Whatever, guys. I really wish you'd read things before firing off. Constructive criticism? I doubt it. And I would say that it is exactly a pattern with SnowFire, which is why I snapped at him. That was wrong, and I guess I am being too sensitive. however, I find the sniping unnecessary. And at times it really does seem like you come here to debate and play politics. And this is a perfect example.

Assigning a number to each game has no bearing whatsoever on the creativity of the GM to name a game and refer to it as such on the threads, nor did I suggest that it should. It furthermore doesn't affect the play of any game. It is as LordStone mentioned a trivial piece of data, requiring no effort on aanyone's part but my own.

I saw assigning a number to each game as an oganizational method that obviously was once in place here. It is also employed effectively but other Diplomacy communities for the same reason that I have mentioned. These games manage to continue and have names and themes along with a number designation. I think we'll manage too in spite of the oppressive numbers that may be applied to a game.

I'll clarify what I mean about naming games. What would we do if we had two games going at the same time using the title "Colonial Diplomacy?" Let's assume that neither GM could be bother to create a theme or an interesting name to distinguish them. How would we tell them apart. Or how about "Silent Dip?" Those are already numbered in some fashion. Eventually these variant will be replayed again and again, and more ofeten than not they will lack a specific name.

Even if you completely disagree that such a system is needed, why does it annoy you so that I would implement it? How does it affect your gaming experience? It doesn't at all.

**Sahib** · February 19, 2001, 07:59

Uhhuuuu. Stop it! This is not OT. Stories&Diplomacy has always been such a nice place, don´t change it into that battle ground we know as OffTopic, please!

Maybe there´s room for both, names and numbers. Maybe both are needed?

A name is a good thing, it makes it much easier to find your game thread amid a dozen others. I have seen people posting in a Dip22 thread when they wanted to post in Dip20. Such things can be very confusing. A name helps there.

On the other hand, numbers have their advantages too. It´s easier to follow the history of the club as a whole. And it certainly makes it easier for people like Ruffy, who keep track of the ADC records.

So is there a problem? No! Because you can give each game a number AND a name. Why not? I currently GM a game wich I called "Newbie". Since Ruffy now gave us that (very good) list, I now call it "Dip 48 Newbie". Period.

Sometimes we dispute things on Apolyton that are not worth the energy we spend on them. I wish we would spend that energy and time rather on strategy. You know, the WM forum for example has been rather quiet lately. ;-)

And now for some thread highjacking: I need a replacement for Austria in "Dip 48 Newbie". It´s a nice position!

**CyberGnu** · February 19, 2001, 16:00

Hey Ruffhaus, since you listed my three wins, don't you think it's time you elevated me from 'recruit'?

------------------
Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

**Defiant** · February 19, 2001, 16:11

The numbering system is good, it lets us know how many games have been played at this site, I will still call mine Domination or something like Dip 46 Domination moves are due, BTW TODAY. But at least we know we 50 some games initiated at this site. Ruff did a lot of work on this and I believe it should be embraced by the rest of the Dip community, just a thought.

**RUFFHAUS8** · February 19, 2001, 16:50

Well, rat farts! I never meant for this to be such a big deal, and I never meant to be nasty to SnowFire. I think he an I have settled things to some extent privately.

The intent behind issuing a game number was neve meant to be anything more than an organizational tool for tracking and distinguishing games from one another. It wasn't intended to be a mandatory thing that GMS muse use in referring to their games. I just figured when the time comes to ussue another number because the GM can't think of anything better to name the game, then he'll have an idea of what number. If nothing else it just helps to keep count of how many games that we've hosted here.

Cyber Gnu: I started tracking ADC play/performance shortly after it's inception with the start of Dip 22 Postmodern. I have no idea how to go back and achieve statistics play in games past. So my ranking scale will definately slight you from that perspective. But any player with your track record should easily be able to overcome such a minor setback! Why not join us for another game soon?

Sahib: This MOBIUS character appeared on the threads last night claiming to have sent his orders for Newbie Dip. Maybe he sent them by ICQ?

**Gerwald** · February 19, 2001, 16:57

I am lucky number 13 in this thread. Now that it has been settled properly (privately) lets get these games finished! I for one think that DIP 22 is over. Definately a Turkish solo!! Just kidding Bezerker and Victor!

**Imran Siddiqui** · February 19, 2001, 22:03

*Yawn* Once again, Ruffhaus decides to piss off people because of his idiotic slave devotion to this ADC... which was never meant to end up this way. Alas, as it is with every bureaucracy, right Snowfire and Lordstone?

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