should I?

[MagyarCrusader]

I'm getting pretty good response to Roman Civil War. If we make enough good scenarios, people will play them. We just need that critical mass. Keep the faith!

Maybe you're right. I really would prefer ToT... I will watch your PBEM thread and see how it goes. But Techumseh, if I do make this scenario you better jump in the PBEM game!

I saw a note in John Ellis' Seize the Crown about attempting to change the spaceship to the crusade...
That may be an interesting idea, especially if the graphics in the dll's are edited... First european power to get a crusade together wins the game...

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I'll do it. The 'Crusade Race' would limit the possibilities of the scenario and everyone would have to stop after it's accomplished, even if people want to keep going. It's a good idea for single player, but not multiplayer. Besides, I wouldn't want to rip off John Ellis' idea and make him impatient with me.

I want to vote yes and Hungarians suck!

Great! When it's done you can join the game and show me how bad we really suck.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

And why is option 3 at 5 votes now?!

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader


Maybe you're right. I really would prefer ToT... I will watch your PBEM thread and see how it goes. But Techumseh, if I do make this scenario you better jump in the PBEM game!

You got it!

And why is option 3 at 5 votes now?!

'Cause I haven't figured out how to vote more than once!

[Heresson]

Maybe you could drop Poland

I'll be happy to see that scenario with Poland or without it

[DarthVeda]

I voted Hungarians suck even though I am part Hungarian

[Heresson]

I am absolutely objective here. Poland is a good choice
Though it depends on exact time. When shall your scn start and when will it end, and what shall be on the map. That are the basics the discussion can not go without.

[Valuk]

No! You should absolutely drop those barbarian Poles or Hungarians and include Byzantium.
What did Hungary have in the year 1000? Nothing!
What did Byzantium have? 2000 years of culture!
You should consider the sides objectively, you know...

[Chris 62]

It's also a matter of perspective, Poland becomes a major power at the very end of the middle ages, during the height of the period the Teutonic Knights pretty much vitimized Polish tribes for fun and profit.

The driving factor in the early middle ages is disintigration of the Roman Empire and rise of the Germanic Barbarians.
The next period is the era of the Viking raids, which reunifies many areas, followed by the rise of the Holy Roman Empire.
During this period the Byzantines were resisting the rise of Islam in the Middle east and Turkey, a battle they would slowly lose over time.

Another driving factor is Christian Spain resisting Muslim Spain, which was far more advanced.
France and Britain are really small fractured kingdoms of little importance on the world stage, they are actually quite backward.

The high middle ages are defined by first the Norman conquests, and then Crusades against Islam, that make some gains in the ME, as well as Spain, but Islam is challenged heavily (as is Eastern Europe) by the Mongol conquests (Many historians believe that western Europe was only saved by the khan dieing, which forced all Mongol leaders to return home to appoint the new leader, by Mongol tradition).

Hungary under Bela was crushed by Mongol armies, so making them a major power is questionable (but I know Magyar wants his home nationality in the game, so be it), but France, England and Poland in this period are interchangable as civ choices.

I do still believe that a Byzantine civ should be separate from any other grouping, they had different forces and motivations from the other Christian States.

Events and Barb cities could handle the Vikings, and maybe the Normans and mongols as well.

[Arthedain]

Instead of Poland you could have Lithuania which was a big country at least in the late Middle Age. In 1430 it covered an area from the Baltic to the Balck Sea. (see image, red territory) Later Poland and Lithuania formed an union and soon both countries were ruled by one king and became one kingdom, Poland.

[tanelorn]

Europe 1000 ad

Yeah, but since according to Magyar Crusader this is not going to be a rennaisance scenario, about Hungarians and Ottomans, but a scenario about Magyar participation in the Crusades a 1000ad map is more appropriate, I think. (11c.). The easy thing to do though, is to go straight to 1071, when the map has already been changed. Here is a map I made.

[MagyarCrusader]

Instead of Poland you could have Lithuania which was a big country at least in the late Middle Age. In 1430 it covered an area from the Baltic to the Balck Sea. (see image, red territory) Later Poland and Lithuania formed an union and soon both countries were ruled by one king and became one kingdom, Poland.

OK, I'll admit it, I'm not a buff on Polish history during the Middle Ages! But I do want to include them, if for no other reason than strategic balance for the scenario. The Holy Roman Empire will already be the most dominant human controlled civ. This is a giga map that does include a lot of Russia. If there is no Poland, there is only Hungary checking German eastward expansion against barbarian controlled cities. I am not going to make Hungary a super civ (although the thought has crossed my mind a few times ) to deal with it. Remember, diplomatic negotiations between human players will be permitted. Poland, Hungary and England will be roughly of equal strenght (ie, production and population). France will be a bit higher in both areas and the Holy Romans will be even greater. Human players should keep this in mind when they approach the foreign policy table. Cooperation is important, and if the players wanted there could be no war... but ultimately everyone is looking out for himself.

Chris, how active were the Vikings after 1000AD? Denmark is included in the map but only the southern tip of Norway and Sweden. Maybe if wouldn't be worthwhile to use events to simulate their activity if historically speaking, they were minor during this period?

Tanelorn, what year is that map? I want to start the game off after there was been a split between Rome and the German Emperor. What year should that be?

Valuk, that is a sick joke.

Heresson, clear out your pm box, i haven't been able to send you any messages.


Darth, shame on you!

Tech, you wanna help me with units? I'm not going to start working on this scenario until at least St Leo posts the Middle Age graphics thread for me to raid from.

[Chris 62]

The Vikings settled after 1000 AD, they stopped raiding, the eastern Vikings become the Novgorod Russians, as well as Kievans, and many other Russian tribes.

The Western branch become the Britons, the eastern half of England anyway, called as i mentioned, the Danelaw.
Harold Goodwinson beats them just before he losses to William the conqueror in 1066.

Over time the Vikings become peaceful, Sweden emerges from them, as well as denmark and norway.

So I think that event driven barbs is the way to go with them.

[MagyarCrusader]

Well if they are peaceful, which direction should the viking barbs be driven?

[Chris 62]

I would stop having them after 1000 AD.
They started to settle, the Normans are actually Vikings, given Normandy so they would protect France instead of attacking it.

Viking raiders were known in Italy and the byzantine world, and raided down Russian rivers all the way to the Black sea, but as empires in europe became more organized, Vikings realized that trade was more valuable then raids.

[tanelorn]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Tanelorn, what year is that map? I want to start the game off after there was been a split between Rome and the German Emperor. What year should that be?

-The map is 1000 ad.

-Dates (not the fruit )

962 Pope John XII crowns Otto I Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (Reestablishment of the Empire)

1066 Battle of Hastings: Normans conquer England

1071 Battle of Mantzikert, Armenia. Turks conquer Asia Minor

1075 Pope Gregory VII excommunicates the Emperor Henry

1077 Emperor Henry in Canosa (reconciliation with the Pope)

1096 First crusade

[MagyarCrusader]

So prehaps '75 should be the starting year?

How much of Asia Minor did the Turks take from Manzikert? Was it all the way to Bosporus?