Some thoughts on WW2 era governments and Civ

[Case]

As I've mentioned to a few people [whose feedback has been very useful], I'm currently in the process of making yet another WW2 scenario. This time around I'm implementing a very ambitious tech tree and government hierarchy. Without further rambling, here are my views on what the most appropriate forms of government for the era should be. I'd greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Monarchy: Dictatorship. This will represent the various tin pot dictatorships which blighted Eastern Europe in the 30s and early 40s.
Rationale: These governments were very inefficant and were prone to corruption. In addition, the civ(s?) I'm assigning this government to aren't intended to be played by the AI

Communism: Stalinism. This is a less then satisfactory set up due to the lack of corruption and impediments to science, but it will have to do

Republic: Fascism.
Rationale: While it's almost traditional to assign this form of government to Fundamentalism, I think that this is totally unrealistic. Historically Fascist governments struggled for public support and were responsible for considerable corruption and waste of industrial resources (the German wartime tank design programs are a good example of this)

Democracy: Liberal Democracy. Pretty self explanatory. This will reflect the populations high productivity and general unwillingness to wage war.

Fundamentalism: War Democracy.
Rationale: This will reflect the huge industrial capacities of the wartime democracies and the widespread support that the democratically elected governments enjoyed once the population realised the threat that the totalitarians posed. This will also enable me to give these governments free volunteer units, which will further reflect the industrial advantages that the wartime democracies enjoyed.

And here's the picture that I'm thinking of using as the titlepage. It should make the scenarios topic pretty clear

[Goingonit]

You can set "Communism is equivalent to this palace distance" to give Communist governments however much corruption you want.

[Ecthy]

War Democracy would be superior. That realistic?

[Henrik]

Actually imhp the only thing that would be really realistic atleast during the war (I take this is going to start before the actual war?) is fundamentalism for everyone.

However, the republic for fascism is an interesting idea, as the wommens suffrage wonder would eliminate all unrest due to troops being away from cities (this could also mean that when you lose that wonder if preplaced all citizens will go unhappy becouse of troops in the field, nicely usable for the fall of berlin for example)...

[Chris 62]

Monarchy would be a better choice for the Nazis, with only one or two unsupported cities.

Nazi germany was totally corrurpt, ineffiency was everywhere, especially the further you got from der furer's direct control.

Japan was little better, it suits their government as well.

[Boco]

Wonders are the key

There's a lot of flexibility here.

I like Case's scheme. As Henrik mentions, wonders can help shore up any flaws that it may have. They can also be used as incentives to encourage historically relevant strategies.

Though Chris is right about Nazi corruption, the science handicap vs Wartime Democracy would be high. With Monarchy, the German science would likely need either a wonder boost or a tailored tech tree.

Production under Nazism was inefficient. Hitler was reluctant to put Germany under a full wartime economy. A wild guess at tank production would pit ~10k PzKw Mk iv's and v's vs 80k Shermans and T34's. For that reason, I'd give certain production improvements only to UK/US and USSR.

Case, how are you going to address oil?

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Nazi germany was totally corrurpt, ineffiency was everywhere, especially the further you got from der furer's direct control.

Was it? News to me, and to everyone who knows they conquered 80% of Europe basically in about the time of a year. And didn't lose it until it was reconquered by a stronger power. Pretty good for being inefficient. Also interesting: one of those never getting high enough numbers for holocaust estimations calling the responsibles inefficient.

[Case]

Re: Wonders are the key

Originally posted by Boco
Case, how are you going to address oil?

I'm using a special terrain (like Red Front). It's hardly a perfect solution, but it will have to do

Ecthelion, I think that you need to read a bit more history. Nazi Germany was extreamly corrupt and inefficant. Nazi war production was crippled by political favoratism and beurocracy.
As an example, the Tiger tank program nearly came close to collapse due to Hitlers unjustified preferance for the hugely inferior Porshe Tiger (which eventually saw light as the imfamous Elephant/Ferdinand tank destroyer).

If you want more proof check out the German tank production vs Soviet tank production. From memory, the Soviets built 30,000 T-34s and the Germans built only 5,000 of their equivelant Panther tanks.

[Exile]

Case, one of the reasons that German AFV production compared so unfavorably to both Russian and American production levels of similar vehicles during the war years was that the German facilities for tank production were the same used for the production of railroad locomotives, port cranes, and other very heavy equipment. These facilities were not designed for massive output levels in the same way the the American automotive industry and the Russian tank industries were. Moreover, at almost the last minute, the French were actually able to produce more tanks prior to May 1940 than the Germans fielded at the time. AND, several hundred of those tanks used to invade France and the low countries were seized Czech vehicles, not German-produced.

Also, the American production systems had their share of wastage and inefficiency. For example, the reason that the United States produced no tanks heavier than 40 tons during most of the war was because the loading facilities and cranes at most American ports simply couldn't handle anything heavier than that.

On the question of German inefficiency, Albert Speer was able to rationalize and steamline production during the 43-44 period so that its output was substantially increased, in terms of tanks, planes, small arms, and munitions. Yes, some part of this increase was due to the utilization of slave labor, nevertheless, it was efficient. Brutal, inhuman, but efficient. The point; German efficiency fluctuated widely at different times during the course of the conflict.

[Chris 62]

In other words Andy, I told you so.

[Jim Winchell]

Fascism was a bankrupt ideology and in any civ scenario the difference between the democracies and the government of Nazi Germany should be like night and day. I would use Monarchy or even Despotism for Germany. Like a shark, make it so that the Nazi civ will have to keep moving to survive, invading other countries to be able to raise just enough gold to support city improvments in Germany (happiness and factories) which are necessary to build combat units. The further Germany expands, the less effective the conquered cities will be for production, reducing the chance that the German player will be able to build Tiger tanks at Narvik or Rostov. The German player would also have to garrison conquered cities with ground units to offset unhappiness. A large part of the population of conquered cities will have to be set as entertainers (use a secret policeman icon instead of Elvis) to prevent rioting and as tax collectors to raise gold to support the city improvements in Germany. And with the population set as entertainers and tax collectors, then the conquered cities will be less effective to produce units. And the cities would be likely to not be able to raise enough food and suffer starvation, which would also show another evil aspect of Nazi policy towards the conquered nations. Give the Germans the Capitalism improvement and call it Slave Labor and make a house rule that the Germans can only produce gold and caravans in captured cities outside of Poland.

Give Great Britain/US the Michelangelo wonder so the allied-owned cities would always have implied cathedrals. Give all cities in Germany and annexed Austria (not Czech.) cathedrals at start and rename them Party Headquarters or some such and make the maintenance on them expensive. Place the Bach wonder in Berlin. Do not allow any nation to build cathedrals. This way the cities in Germany would not suffer unhappiness as much as the cities in the nations conquered by Germany. With the maintenance on these city improvements so high, the Allies would have an incentive to sell them off, especially since the player would not need the cathedral improvement. And what Allied player would want a Party HQ in his city anyway? The Soviets could keep them because they would become "Communist" Party HQs.

As for oil, place the Hoover Dam and King Richard wonders in a major city in the Ruhr industrial area like Cologne and make them obsolete with an advance received if the Russians capture the Rumanian oil fields. In past WWII scenarios, these wonders have been given to the Russian player to show the Urals or Lend Lease. This is not necessary, just make the Soviet combat units cheaper to build. If you use multiple event and rule files, make the Soviet combat units more expensive to build prior to 1941. When you switch rule files in 1941, make the Soviet units cheaper to build. The Adam Smith wonder can be built by the Russians to simulate Lend Lease.

[Ecthy]

If they sucked so bad, how did they achieve all the maniacal slaughter?

[Jim Winchell]

Because Nazi Germany "sucked so bad" it lost the war. Nazi Germany looted and starved the conquered nations. If the occupation policies had been different, perhaps Germany would have greater success than it did.

In civ terms Democracy, Republic, and Fundamentalism are not appropriate to represent the government of Nazi Germany. Despotism, Monarchy, and possibly Communism with high corruption levels would. Any WWII scenario that allows the Germans to easily build tanks and other combat units in Russia, Greece, Norway, Yugoslavia, France, etc. is not an accurate simulation. The production in cities in the conquered nations should be minimal. Combat units should be primarily manufactured in Germany and shipped to the front.

[Chris 62]

Andy, after 1942 Germany did not win a major battle, just a long string of defeats.

JW, some nice ideas, but if you go that far play balence becomes an issue, playing as the allies would be to easy and almost impossible as the axis.

Remember, once Germany went to total war footing in 42-43, she managed record production numbers in aircrafth and tanks (altough still trailing the allies), so they shouldn't be hopeless, just difficult.

[techumseh]

How about old fashioned 'Despotism'? It supports lots of military units and has lower research levels. While it also has significantly lower food production, this is not necessarily unrealistic either. You could compensate by using refrigeration/farmland in German cities and by requiring the Germans to create food caravans from conquered areas.

The problem with 'Republic' is the loss of the military garrison effect on city happiness. I think this is an important feature of control by fascist regimes.