Crusades???

[Oldman]

Does anyone know who was involved in the crusades? and what time they were? cheers!!

[Oldman]

Ok, i should have asked mark first!!!! So i know the Turks were involved under the leadership of Saladin. And they were fighting over jerusalem, so what part did egypt play? were the moors involved? who's was the latin army? did greece come out to play at all? any suggestions?

[Fiera]

To put it in a few lines, the First Crusade was preached by Pope Urban II in 1095, and in some way involved all catholic states of the moment, the Franks, the Germans and the Normans being the most exalted of the Crusaders.

The Greeks were also involved, for the Byzantine Empire was being attacked by Siljuki (sp?) Turk hordes. The Crusaders came to Constantinople, the Byzantine Emperor helped them to cross the sea, and there they fought back the Turks, until they reached Jerusalem, which was under the power of the fattimi (sp?) Caliph of Egipt. Jerusalem was taken by the Crusaders, and three Christian States were created: the Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Princedom of Antiochy and the County (?) of Edessa.

This is for the first Crusade. On the next ones, the English (Richard the Lionheart) and the Venetians were also involved.

There are several scenarios on the net depicting the Crusades. If you are planning to do a new one, maybe you should take a look at them.

I hope this helps. Sorry about my grammar and my spelling.
[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited August 02, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

Oh, that´s a nice question...

Ok, first crusaders (1096-99AD) were mainly Franks and Normans, they conqered Jerusalem in 1099. The Franks were also involved in most of the other crusades. So the second crusade was Franconian and German, I think.

After the first crusade exist four different Christian realms in Middle East (Kingdom of Jerusalem, Edessa, Antiochia, Tripolis)

Salah ad-Din (Saladin )rules Egypt since 1171, defeated the Cristians 1187 near Hattin and took Jerusalem back. Only a few cities were still in the hands of the Christians after that.

The third crusade (1189-92) was one of the most important with Franks, English (Lionheart!) and Germans (but only a part of the German forces reached Acco after the death of Barbarossa). The crusaders retake Acco 1191 and defeated Saladin near Arsuf, but failed to take Jerusalem. But the Christian realms retake some other cities and were stabilized for some time.

The were some other crusades, most successful was German emperor Friedrich II., which took Jerusalem back with negotiations in 1228/29.

After that the christian realms in Middle East were under constantly heavy Muslim attacks and despite some more crusades, Acco as the last Christian city was captured in 1291.

For the Turks and Greeks: If you make a scn about crusades, the Byzantines should play a role there. Most of the territory was greek, and their culture was a mixture from ancient Roman and Greek elements. In 1071, the Turkish(?) Seldjuks defeated a Byzantine army near Mantzikert and established a Sultanate there and the Byzantine Emperor calls for help in Western Europe, which was one of the reasons for the first crusade.

And the Muslim people in North Africa and Spain (which was conquered by Muslims) were called Moors, so you don´t need them if your scn covers only the crusades. However, Spain was reconquered by Christians with a special kind of crusade, the Reqonquista...

Ok, long answer, hope this helps.
[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited August 02, 2000).]

[Fiera]

BeBro has brought some light to all those aspects I had nearly passed by.

Just a (very small) complaint: it's 'Reconquista'... Don't take me wrong, I'm Spanish and my only purpose is to help you, not to correct you.

[BeBMan]

Don´t worry, help is always welcome

[Stefan Härtel]

Meanwhile, the Seljuks, of Turkish origin, were fighting against the Khwarazmians, who revolted against their rule and took all their posessions in Persia and Central Asia...

[tolstoy]

Don't forget the Ethiopeans. Thats right the Ethiopeans were coptic christians and helped to fight in the crusades and even one fo the Ethiopean generals was sainted by the catholic church. Oh and you should allow the crusaders to sack constantinople cuz they did that a few times when they didn't want to go all the way to Jerusalem to fight some one. And the northen italian port also helped to ship the crusaders but they didn't do any of the fighting, just the profit taking off the wars, sold spices, silks, drugs, europeans crusaders as slaves, you know the usual kinda of things.

But you probably shouldn't be calling Saladin a turk, he was an arab from Egypt, the turks empire didn't start until the 14th century and took over many of the western islamic kingdoms. The crusades were fought during the 11th and 12th century before the rise of the Ottoman Empire. Saladin was the ruler of Egypt, Syria, Yemen, and Palestine so you know what areas he controled. You could still have the turks around Constanople and the moors in Spain but they were not apart of Saladin's kingdom.

[Stefan Härtel]

quote: But you probably shouldn't be calling Saladin a turk, he was an arab from Egypt, the turks empire didn't start until the 14th century

You're right about Saladin being an Arab, but the Turks were present in this area for a long time. You're reffering to the Ottoman Turks, who migrated to Anatolia from Central Asia, which at that time was being occupied by the Mongols (there still is a territory called "Turkestan" there, and Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and I believe Tadjikistan are still of Turkish decendance). Osman I. was the founder of the Ottoman empire (reigned ca. 1300-1326), but he picked up largely what was already existing. After all, the Seljuk Turks ruled a huge fraction of the Islamic world in the 11th century, from Afghanistan to the Aegean and Arabia until their empire was reduced to a part of Asia Minor by the Mongols, Crusaders, Khwarazmians and possibly Arabs too, thus labeling the country "Turkey".
BTW, the territories that were first under Seldjuk rule were Merv, Herat and Nishabuhr, speaking for the Central Asian expansion of the Turks. Turkish rule in Persia was ended by the Kwharizmians in 1194. You may want to play Harlan T's "Mongols" scenario on that

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html
[This message has been edited by Stefan Härtel (edited August 03, 2000).]

[Oldman]

edit: ooopps, cheers stefan, sorry if any of this is irrelevant, you just beat me to posting?!?!!?


Thanks Guys, so let me try and get all of this straight...

You've got Saladin who's an Arab (eqypt, palastine etc)
The Byzantine empire, centered around Greece and constantinople, who was the leader of them??
english and richard the lionheart!
So where do the Venitians come in to it? was the pope one of them, or is he different?
Who were the franks? they aren't the french are they? cause the normans sort of were weren't they? and who ruled them?
You said the moors weren't involved really cause they were busy taking spain?

Cheers again guys!! as you can see my knowledge of history is very bitty!?!? but if you want to know about Roman bath house things i'm your man!!!!

[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited August 03, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by Oldman on 08-02-2000 04:33 AM So i know the Turks were involved under the leadership of Saladin. And they were fighting over jerusalem, so what part did egypt play?

1. Salah-ud.dhin was a sunnite kurdish, fighting in egyptian sciite Fatimids army. He overthrow Fatimids and founded Ayyubid egyptian dinasty. His dinasty destroyed the remainings of near east turkisk kingdoms ( heirs of Saljuqids, the Zingids and Atabeg kingdoms, to be exact... )

2. Greek Byzantine Empire was involved in a continue war against "Rum" Saljuqids Turkish empire ( the anatolic branch of Saljuqids family ); the Byzantine dinasty was named Comnemi ( before 1185 ), after 1185 the power changed to the Angeli dinasty, or "Angheloi", in greek language ...

[Stefan Härtel]

Oldman: You forgot the Turks!
The Venetians were Italian merchants and dominated a lot of the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean sea. I don't know hoow exactly they were involved, but I think that they also sent some crusaders into battle. I guess they sent esp. ships to the other crusaders...

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[BeBMan]

Oldman, the Franks ARE the French, but the words French and France weren´t used at this time. The Franconian kingdom was earlier part of Charlemagnes empire, I don´t remember in some kings except Ludwig the Saint, who lead the last big crusade (1270).

Venetians as well as people from other Italian cities like Genua and Amalfi were very important for the crusades. They (in some crusades also the Byzantines) provided the crusaders with ships, and helped to build siege engines in the Holy Land (the first crusaders weren´t very good in that ).
Later there were many conflicts between Venetia(?), Genua and the Byzantines, so the fourth crusade (1202-04) was turned into a war against the Byzantines mainly due to the Venetians. So the crusaders took Constantinople in 1204.

For the moors: their Emirate of Cordoba in Spain was established in 755AD, when the first crusade starts (1096), the Reconquista has already begun.

Another note (to make the confusion complete ): don´t forget the important role of the Knight´s Orders, mainly the Templars and Hospitalers...

[Civfan]

I think the sacking of Constantinople by the crusaders in the 2nd or third crusade was in fact due to a civil war in the Byzantine empire. They supported a prince who contested for the throne and asked for their help.....I read that somewhere....correct me if i'm wrong..

[Stefan Härtel]

Here's something on the first Crusade (translated from the Chronicle of Germany):

Onwards with God
July 15th, 1099
The troops of the united crusader army under the leadership of Duke Gottfried of Bouillon and the Norman Tankred manages to take Jerusalem after a four-week long siege. After about 3 years since the departure of the Crusader army to the holy land, the first Crusade comes to an end.
The victorious Christian armies start a terrible bloodbath among the Muslim population. The Islamic world is shocked by the brutality of the Christians.
Exit point of the Crusade was the speech of Pope Urban II. on the concile of Clermont on November 27th 1095, in which he demanded the liberation of the sacred grave in Jerusalem. The assembly ended with the woords "God wants it!" The enthusiasm for the Crusade in Europe was raised by the spreading of the preachments from week to week. The church advertised for the Crusaders with indulgance. Gottfried of Bouillon financed his partition of the Crusade by sale of his castle, Robert of the Normandy pawned his entire property.
The departure of the Cursaders, which was sceduled by the Pope to be on August 15th 1096, was unorderly and in sepparated units.
In the following years it came to changing fights with the regional muslimic rulers in the holy land, before the conquest of Jerusalem temporarily broke the Muslim resistance. Gottfried of Bouillon was proclaimed first ruler of the kingdom of Jerusalem in 1099.

1st Crusade
Time:1096 to 1099
Cause: Proclamation by Pope Urban II. ("God wants it!") to protect the Christian churches in the holy land from the Muslims.
Participaters: 330 000 (40 000 reach the holy land) knights (mostly Burgundians, Provincials, Loranians and Normans from southern Italy).
Leader: Duke Gottfried of Bouillon from lower-Lorania, Count Raimund of Toulouse, Duke Robert of Normandy and Boemund of Tarent.
Route: Balkans and Sicily/Greece
Sponsoring: Mostly own payment (sale of property) and sposnoring from the Curch (indulgance).
Result: Kingdom of Jerusalem founded in 1099

I have this type of information on each single Crusade. Want more?

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html