New WWII Scenario in the works

[Jimmywax]

Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Cal
I'm kicking around ideas for a chronology in which the Nazi's achieve total Victory in europe. What're eveyone's opinions?
Basic, undetailed, structure:

5. At Dunkrik, the BEF and nearly all of the RAF planes assigned with them are obliterated by air and panzer assault. One transport ship makes it out of Dunkirk with 30 men aboard, no planes return, England is left with hardly any air support, having lent most all of the RAF to the task of facing the germans in the lower countries.

...and there we go. Too implausible?

The only reason the allies got away at Dunkirk is because Goeringh told Hitler that if the Fuhrer gave him 48 hours, his Luftwaffe would obliterate them. This resulted in Hitler holding the Panzers at the city limits until most of the troops had already been evacuated. They could have easily pushed foward and crushed the troops under their tracks.

As far as Sealion, historians have stated time and again that if Hitler had kept the Battle of Britain going for another week, he would have destroyed the RAF and had air superiority to bomb the country into submission.

[Case]

Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Jimmywax
As far as Sealion, historians have stated time and again that if Hitler had kept the Battle of Britain going for another week, he would have destroyed the RAF and had air superiority to bomb the country into submission.

I've read the opposite . The RAF had some huge advantages in the Battle of Britain, namely:
- Britain could chose how many casualties they wanted to take by simply withdrawing the fighters to bases north west of London. These bases were out of range of the Luftwaffe's fighters, but were still within easy range of the likely landing grounds. As a result, had things ever gotten too bad, the RAF could have been preserved.
- Britain never came close to running out of planes - the shortfall was in pilots
- And even this shortfall wasn't that big a problem, as most of the dogfighting took place over Britain, meaning that any RAF pilots who bailed out would quickly return to duty, while any Germans who bailed out spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.
-The RAF was fighting from well prepared and stocked bases, while the Luftwaffe was fighing from captured French airfields at the end of a slow and unreliable line of supply from Germany.

In addition, the German army simply didn't have a clue on how to conduct an amphibious assault, and the navy didn't have the naval forces to ofter more then token support.

On the other hand if Germany had managed to land a couple of Panzer divisions backed up with paratroops, Britain would have had to sue for peace within days as there really wasn't anything to stop them, and as a result Cal's sequence sounds believable. However, you may want to throw something in about Roosevelt not being the American president at the time

[Jimmywax]

Re: Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Case


In addition, the German army simply didn't have a clue on how to conduct an amphibious assault, and the navy didn't have the naval forces to ofter more then token support.

True, very true. I have read the other stuff two, and I guess it is just a matter of what pov you want to believe. Personally it helps my American Ego to think that Great Britain was on the brink and we entered the war just in time. I have read that Churchill himself knew that England could not hold out forever. Whether that was to a couple months or a year I am not certain.

P.S. I do agree that the Germans would never have been able to pull off a naval landing. The Brits had pillboxes on every street corner, and a population with a fighting spirit.

[Grothgar]

I think youll have to assume that hitler didnt declare war on russia this time, frankly if he thinks he can conquer the US then he has all the living room he needs

[The ANZAC]

I actually heard somewhere that Germany could have won the the Battle of Britain if they did not focus on attacking civilian targets and kept on hitting hitting airbases and other facilities. So the war could have followed the same timeline until the Battle of Britain. And then again you could have Dunkirk go differently and have the BEF be wiped out completely.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Grothgar
I think youll have to assume that hitler didnt declare war on russia this time, frankly if he thinks he can conquer the US then he has all the living room he needs

Well, that goes without without saying.

[Hobbes]

Britain could chose how many casualties they wanted to take by simply withdrawing the fighters to bases north west of London. These bases were out of range of the Luftwaffe's fighters, but were still within easy range of the likely landing grounds. As a result, had things ever gotten too bad, the RAF could have been preserved.

Hmmmm, it seems as if your 'alternate history', Cal, is in need of some long range bombers!

Churchill and the Royal family are dead

Good lord no!! not the Queeeen! Have them escape to Canada or Portugal or Africa for God sakes!

[Hobbes]

Okay, my first Messerschmitt Me 264 "Amerika" sucked ass, so here is a better version:

[Jimmywax]

Originally posted by Hobbes
Okay, my first Messerschmitt Me 264 "Amerika" sucked ass

Yes, yes it did But this one makes up for it.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Hobbes
Good lord no!! not the Queeeen! Have them escape to Canada or Portugal or Africa for God sakes!

The Queen wasn't even the Queen back then, was she? Sometimes you've just got to let a royal family go... France and Russia's were murdered, weren't they?

[Cal]

Re: Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Case
On the other hand if Germany had managed to land a couple of Panzer divisions backed up with paratroops, Britain would have had to sue for peace within days as there really wasn't anything to stop them, and as a result Cal's sequence sounds believable. However, you may want to throw something in about Roosevelt not being the American president at the time

Thank you! But what does Roosevelt have to do with anything?

[Case]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Cal
But what does Roosevelt have to do with anything?

I'd say that in the event of a German invasion of Britain, Roosevelt would have declared war on Germany. Why not have Roosevelt lose the 1936 election to, say, Charles Lindburgh?

[Cal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Case


I'd say that in the event of a German invasion of Britain, Roosevelt would have declared war on Germany. Why not have Roosevelt lose the 1936 election to, say, Charles Lindburgh?

Charles Lindburgh?!
The America First committee was a special interest group, not a political party. And they were founded in september 1940. Also, to prove a point, here's a quote I remember him saying around when the USA extended its Lend-Lease aid to the Soviet Union, and I'm paraphrasing from memory:
"I would prefer an alliance with Nazi Germany, with all its faults, rather than support the godless barbarianism that exists in the Soviet Union."

A lot of scenarios feature the "USA entering war once London falls" option, but I don't think it's too unlikely that the only thing that would've prompted the USA to really enter the war would be a sneak attack by one of the Axis forces. (I'm pretty sure it was Germany that declared war on America after pearl harbor, not the other way around.) Support for intervention only began to be the majority opinion once Paris had fallen.

Btw...
I'm thinking of giving the USA three unique units, a unit to represent Eisenhower, Patton, and MacArthur (called back from the Phillippines). Anyone want to make me some images for these units?

[Cal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Case
I'd say that in the event of a German invasion of Britain, Roosevelt would have declared war on Germany.

Another thing you must be aware of is that the act of declaring war without congress' approval wasn't done until President Truman did it for the Korean War. Roosevelt still got congress' permission to declare war after Pearl Harbor, I don't think he would have had a majority without the attack.

[Case]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alternate History lesson

Originally posted by Cal

Charles Lindburgh?!
The America First committee was a special interest group, not a political party.

I knew that Lindburgh was a national hero at the time though, so I guess he was (theoritically) electable.

And they were founded in september 1940.

Aparently after the Japanese attack Lidburgh tried to persuade Roosevelt to give him a senior combat position in the USAAF. Roosevelt refused, telling Harry Hopkins "if I die tomorrow, remember that Lindburgh is a facist"