Presenting: 'The Cruel Sea'

[Jimmywax]

For some reason this will not let me post the shields

Edit: this was the fourth time I tried

[Hobbes]

here is MY Canadian and Australian dudes for a scenario I'm workin' on. Note the cool shields.

[Jimmywax]

NICE!!!

Nice looking flags and units.

I made another one today and I hope I will come up with one that i like soon.

Edit: it's the last one.

[Verbatim_Shadow]

Comments

Hey Case, great scenario. I'm a huge WW2 buff, excellant.

My score as of Dec 1942 was over 3200.

Later on, my total domination of the Atlantic Ocean, the Arctic Ocean, the Baltic Sea, the Gulf of Mexico, the Red Sea, the Mediterriaen Sea, the Indian Ocean, and the Pacific Ocean, it became obvious that I had changed the course of history, and likely created Axis victory.

I have an idea to replace the attack on New York:
What about the Falkland Islands?
The Exeter and the Cumberland were at Port Stanley in 1939 in case of an German naval attack to revenge the Battle of the Falkand Islands where Count Von Spee's squadron was destroyed in December 8, 1914. Perhaps Hitler wouldn't mind the glory of revenging the this battle? (later the Exeter was involved in the battle with the Admiral Graf Spee, the 12,100 ton pocket-battleship that was later scuttled)
This would make sense.

I personally enjoyed the use of the Japanese Sub - as it allowed me to raid areas that are blocked off to German and Italian subs. Plus it went along with the historical September 27 tripartite pact with Germany and Italy. If I'm a German sub commander worried about US battle-ships and airpower, hearing that the Japanese have attacked Pearl Harbor is quite important, not to mention when the Japanese later took Singapore from the British or the later battles of the Pacific War.


According to "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" in "1940 1,000 Allied ships were sunk, which was one quarter of British tonnage. in 1941 1,2999 ships were sunk and British exports fell to almost one third of the pre-war total...During 1942, the submarine came closer than at any other time in either world war to undermine fatally the British war effort...out of 39,000 German submariners, 28,000 lost their lives."

The point of the naval blockade was to knock Britian out of the war.

For the Mediterranean, ever ton of supplies of Rommel had to be transported by sea. In Jul-Dec '42, 35.5% of supplies that were sent to German forces in North Africa were lost, mainly because of Allied air power operating out of Malta, which the Navy demanded be captured, but the Army didn't want to use paratroopers after Crete.

Between June 1940 and December 1942 the Italian Regia Marina loaded 2,500,000 tons of supplies but only 1,930,000 reached their destination.

Here is an idea - an Italian or German 'city' in North Africa is building a Conquer Egypt Wonder - if enough freighters can be sent to it and disbanded, the Wonder will be built and the rewards given.

I like the Sabeutors, though they should be MUCH cheaper, as they have uses, but their use is small.
I love the scenario, but it could be harder, on my first try on hardest I crushed everyone.












pocket battle ships:
Admiral Graf Spee sunk in 1939 12,100 tons ( nominally of 10,000 tons) launched in 1934,

Deutschland (re named Lutzow in February 1940) launched in 1931, Admiral Scheer launched June 1933.
(Treaty of Versailles - no German warship more then 10,000 tons)




The great sea battle that was fought on May 27 1905 in the straits dividing Tsushima island during the Russo-Japanese War.

[Case]

Re: Comments

Thanks for that Verbatim_Shadow. It seems that everyone is better at this scenario then me

Originally posted by Verbatim_Shadow
I have an idea to replace the attack on New York:
What about the Falkland Islands?
The Exeter and the Cumberland were at Port Stanley in 1939 in case of an German naval attack to revenge the Battle of the Falkand Islands where Count Von Spee's squadron was destroyed in December 8, 1914. Perhaps Hitler wouldn't mind the glory of revenging the this battle? (later the Exeter was involved in the battle with the Admiral Graf Spee, the 12,100 ton pocket-battleship that was later scuttled)
This would make sense.

The Falkland Islands aren't even close to the area covered by the map, so I guess this is a non-starter

Here is an idea - an Italian or German 'city' in North Africa is building a Conquer Egypt Wonder - if enough freighters can be sent to it and disbanded, the Wonder will be built and the rewards given.

That sounds good I'll include an event giving the Germans freighters from mid 1941 onwards to include this. (I *think* that I've got some spare space for events)

According to "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" in "1940 1,000 Allied ships were sunk, which was one quarter of British tonnage. in 1941 1,2999 ships were sunk and British exports fell to almost one third of the pre-war total...During 1942, the submarine came closer than at any other time in either world war to undermine fatally the British war effort...out of 39,000 German submariners, 28,000 lost their lives."

Those figures are misleading. While the Germans did sink lots of Allied merchant ships, these losses were more then made up by new construction, and various European merchant marines joining the Allies (the Norwegian and Greek merchant marines in particular). Overall, between 1939 and 1945 ships crossing the Atlantic ocean had on average a less then 1% chance of being sunk during the voyage. In the most sucessful months this figure was less then 10%. Britain never came close to colapse from the German 'blockade'.

[Verbatim_Shadow]

Also, according to "The Russo-German War 1941-1945"
22.7% of Western Aid to the Soviet Union was through the North Atlantic a total of 3,964,231 tons from 1941-1945
1941: 153,977
1942: 949,711
1943: 681,043
1944: 1,452,775
1945: 726,725

In 1941, 360,778 tons of Western aid went to the Soviet Union, and 153,977 of it through the North Atlantic. This aid greatly affected the ability of the Soviet Union to equip their forces and launch major campaigns.

"Among the goods delivered were 427,000 motor vehicles, 13,000 armorured fighting vehicles (including 10,000 tanks, 35,000 motorcycles, nearly 19,000 aircraft, 1,9000 railyway locomotives, 11,000 railway trucks (flats), niney freight ships, 105 submarine chasters and 197 torpedo boats, four and a half million tons of foodstuffs and large quantities of raw materials."
The other main routes were, besides Murmansk and Archangel, were through Persia and the Pacific. The United States provided by far the greatest share ofthe aid.

I don't think you need to program exactly where freighters and tankers go - they are the German's targets and besides, this is Civilization, exact realism is not needed. Instead, it would flow that more ships and tonnage would be in the general area if unchecked by any submarine raiding. If no raiding was done, it would make sense that in light of flow of aid to Britian and movements of troops and supplies to the Soviet Union and to launch Normandy and the take over of French North Africa, the oceans would be filled with Allied ships.

If the Germans sunk enough ships, it would follow that Britian would likely sue for peace for lack of ships - first of course the use of ships for launching an invasion of Occupied France, ships used in the Pacific and protecting the British Empire, and ships used for helping the take over of French North Africa, aid to the Soviet Union etc. would be limited.

I suggest that a general rule (not in stone) would be that the Germans have successfully alerted the course of the war in major ways if the combined British and Americans have less then 10 freighters/tankers/liberty ships.

This is just what it seems from playing. At that point, the war would be so alerted as to declare the Axis the winners, or at least that North Africa would go differently, - French North Africa still under Vichy/Axis control, Sicily and Italy would not have fallen, Rommel in Egypt, Britian starving from lack of food and sending out peace feelers, an invasion of Normandy delayed from 1944 to 1945, and then again to 1946 or beyond; a much slower Soviet win against the Germans, the Americans perhaps abandoning the Pacific or the Atlantic theater to concentrate on saving Britian from starvation by abandoning the Pacific to the Japanese (and much of US aid to the Soviets through the Russian Far East) or giving up on Britian and concentrating on the Japanese (as the Germans would have destroyed enough Allied shipping that an Allied war effort in Europe or feeding of Britian would cease). Of course, the Germans could still lose the war even if they won the Battle of the Atlantic.

Lets see - in Cruel Sea I think that the combined Americans and British have 67 freighter/tanker units at the start. If you reduced that to 10, that would be reducing the trade/aid between British and the Americans and aid by at least 86% of the early 1940 amount.
I guess you would have to calculate out what that meant from 1940-1944 in terms of aid to the Soviet Union, and operations in French North Africa, Madagascar, the Pacific, a buildup in Britian for Normandy, securing Normandy itself, and feeding the British population.

My long, rambling point is that if the Germans sink the entire British navy and destroy vast majority of Allied shipping, the Germans would win North Africa, have a greater chance of success in Russia, and possibly knock Britian out of the war.

If the Allies were unable to feed Britian, would they first pull out of Soviet aid? The Pacific? North Africa? Would months of food riots in Britian, in Northern Ireland and Scotland affect Allied policy? Would their perhaps be a revolution or an attempted one if it was felt that the war was lost for the British or if the Americans seemed to be giving up on them and the Soviets weren't turning the Germans back as much as they did historically?
Kursk and El Alamein would illustrate my points exactly.

With the Allied operations delayed by lack of shipping, possiblilities are endless. Roosevelt dying in April 1945 with victory for the Axis increasingly likely, with perhaps Britain having food riots, German troops occuping the Suez Canal, German troops finally taking Leningrad, and after the brief setback of Stalingrad, took the rest of European Russia, taking the Soviet oil fields - with Stalin fleeing to the Urals, to direct a defense there.
Would a new American leadership stuck to the Germany-first strategy if that happened? Would US aid flow to the Soviets if Britain needed it more, or if they felt that aid was a waste and likely to flow into the advancing Germans?
What about the atom bomb? Would the US spend many billions if it felt it wasn't able able to win any conventional victories in the first place?

So for scoring, your chart is nice, but perhaps if you can get it done to 10 freighters/tankers - which means that you've destoryed the British and American navies as a real force.

Final thought: the German aircraft carriers are way to strong, I watch 10 American bombers destroyed attacking one of them every couple turns, and my carrier is barely damaged.
Perhaps my argument is lower chances of victory - if intend, as you claim, German victory was so unlikely.

[Verbatim_Shadow]

Case, I would never be able to design such an amazing scenario as the Cruel Sea.

Well, I have a feeling that if you cut that whole war figure down to just 1940-42, it'd be a lot more then 1%.

During the war there were times, I believe during certain months in 1942, that Allied loses exceeded new production majorly. The problem was that the Germans could not keep up that amount of allied tonage losses. If the Germans were able to sink all of the ships the Americans and British have, as is possible in Cruel Sea, there would be serious problems. Remember that because of a lack of shipping availiable, an invasion of France in 1943 was moved to 1944.
So the blockade is being greatly successfully is quite possible in Cruel Sea.
PS - I myself was able to get Elecktro Boats in Dec 1942.

My fleet was built on two aircraft carriers, carrying F-88s and Fw-190s, holding off of Canada, battling the American airforce, while my Flaks and Elecktro boats controlled all the oceans everywhere else. I had my Bismarck protect the aircraft carriers in case of a sneak attack (I also had some leftover weaker subs surround the carriers so they wouldn't come under too much air attack, although my carriers have very high defense values).
Also when I played I at first was scared of the b24 Liberator, but it was less effective then I thought it would be.

What about the famous case of the fleeing Japanese submarine loaded with information about Japan's advanced atomic bomb program (much, much more advanced then the Germans very small program)? It never reached Germany, as Germany surrendered just as it was in the middle of the Atlantic - it was taken to New York, as press reports at the time reported.

Another mission for the sabetors could have something to do with Mexico or Peron's Argentia, both transit points for German and Japanese spies - often helped by way of Franco's Spain.

I've also noticed that at least during the war, Germany builts a lot more torpedo boats (e-boats?), spped boats, minesweepers then they built destoryers, cruisers, battleships, batle crusiers or pocket battleships combined.

After all, Hitler in Oct 1941, thinking that victory over the Soviets was near, declared victory and the start fo the European New Order. If in the coming months German troops had taken the Egypt and the Suez Canal, and held unto French North Africa, what victories would the Allies have had to push for a continued Europe first strategy? The less likely an Allied invasion of France was, the more troops Hitler would release from France to try to slow down the Soviets.

All I'm saying is that the blockade could have snatched victory from defeat, or at least changed the war in major ways, perhaps even the use of nuclear weapons on Nazi Germany.

[Case]

The figures I quoted come for Clay Blair's authorititve two volume book 'Hitler's U-Boat War' and are backed up by the official British history 'Defeat of the enemy attack on shipping'.
During the war the effect of German submarines was exagereated by British propaganda, and after the war Churchill kept the myth going.
In reality, as even Admiral Donitz admitted, the German navy never had a chance at blockading Britain.

You got Elektro boats in 1942? How did you do it? (and what level were you playing on?)

I'd like to have a more sophisitcated system for accounting for the Germans sucesses and failures, but I don't see how this can be done in Civ 2

Hopefully I can do it in Civ 3

[master on high]

Here's the best I came up with: make several events files. At certain times in the game, the player should check their score on your excel thing...if it's above a certain number then they load one events file, if it's between two numbers than a second, so on and so on. It wouldn't take too much effort, but it could be a way around the forced end of the war.

And you should give the navy the ability to harrass some cities. Malta is an especially painful thorn...

[Verbatim_Shadow]

I understand what you mean, Cass. It's your scenario.
But regardless of history, my point is that in a scenario, it could go either way - if the Germans win Cruel Sea, they affect the war in a major way - because, after all, in Cruel Sea it is possible to win control of the oceans for Germany.

If the Germans lose, which historically they did, the Allied war time-table - invasions of French North Africa, defeat of Rommel, invasion of Italy and Sicily, invasion of France from north and south, in addition to all that American aid flowing to the Soviet Union is unchanged. I also believe that the freighters going to the Soviet Union were NOT under Soviet flag.

As for the Conquer Egypt Wonder here is a possiblity - perhaps it could be called "Conquer Suez Canal" and it would get rid of the mine that blocks German subs from going through the Red Sea and into the Indian Ocean - perhaps create more freighters to move around India. Or it conquering Egypt/Suez could just be a propaganda thing, making Hitler devote more resources to the Navy (aka money).

By Dec 1942, I was building lots of Elecktro Boats, and had 3000 in the bank. I personally was amazed at the level of production, scientific research and tax money I was able to gain. I would just buy ship after ship - I hit New York City in about July 1942 - and sadly of course the terrorist bombings happened the day after (its not your fault of course, don't feel bad about it). First I thought I was supposed to send a sabetour to New York, but when that didn't work (duh, silly me), I used a battleship.

It's cool that you are still working on the scenario.

PS - the idea about multiple event.txts is a great idea. If you choose to do that (its your scenario), you could explain it in the readme - like "rename events2.txt to events.txt if your score is XXXX, (save a backup copy of the original events.txt first)"
Good idea though. Perhaps when the time for Kursk or Rommel's battles or Italy surrendering come around - your score could affect what happens. If I'm kicking the Allies' butt, I don't expect for Germany to be destroyed - of course the Russians could destory Germany anyway, and the Allies could IF they were able to get the atom.

What about Vichy France? I heard at one point the British bombed their fleet, because it was helping Germany - and British and American troops fought to take over French North Africa - and the Vichy France fought back. And what about that old black and white Bograt movie where they are in a French Caribbean Island, and the authorities are pro-Vichy and there is shootings between pro-DeGalle people and pro-Vichy people?

Making the Russians not be building big battleships during 1942 might be nice...
Oh yeah, those wonders were cool, including the Shark Code and all the others. Very professional.

Hey, another thing - what about when Roosevelt and Churchill met in the ocean off NewFoundland? hmmm...lol, good night.

[Case]

Mulitple events depending on how well the Germans are doing- I like that idea (though I'd use it to make life tougher for the Germans )

I've fixed all the various problems with the Soviets (mines, battleships etc)

I had the Vichy French fleet in the beta test version of the scenario, but I was unable to think of a role for them. Historically all the Vichy fleet did was rust in port, and the German attempt to capture the fleet at Toulon ended in complete failure. I guess that I could use mulitple events to give the fleet to the Germans as a reward for sucess

Due to pressures from university, its going to take me a while to put out version 2.0 though. I could put out a majorly updated version with lots of new events and units with a very nice new title page Jimmywax found for me, but I'd rather wait until I have the time to do a major expansion.

(BTW, I'm hoping to send 'The Battle of Australia' out this friday. I'm just playing it through for a final time to check that the unit stats are balanced)