GS's Secret Project

[St Leo]

Found this on soc.history.what-if:

Just wondering, what are people's opinions about the greatest af the
Alexandrine conquerers? Which of the Alexanders contributed the most toward
the dream of world conquest?

My nominations:

Alexander I "The Great" 336-294
I don't think any explanations are needed for this one. The founder of the
Alexandran Empire, master of the conquest, originator of the divine
Alexandrine spirit. His initial conquest of the Persian Empire is the stuff
legends are made of, and his subsequent campaigns in Arabia,
Carthage-Sicily, Italy, Armenia/Caucaus, Nubia, and India showed his
continuing skill in battle. His establishment of the Alexandrine System (the
roving professional army units, recruited and trained everywhere, and
retired, with weapons, as citizenry in military colonies one their term of
service was up) made the empire vastly strong in millitary matters, and
homogenized the empire greatly, easing regional differences. He also
established a stable succesion, and and advanced system of signalling that
allowed rapid communication with the ends of the empire.. He was on heck of
a guy.

Alexander III "India-Lord" 281-243
Coming to the throne at the age of 20 after the death of Alexander II in
battle in India, Alex the 3rd proved himself both more skilled and more
lucky than his predeccesor. He managed to stamp out the revolts that
followed Alexander II's death, and halted the collapse of the Indian Front.
He then went on to conquer of most of India in a brutal series of campaigns.
But that's not all! he also established the system of army-sized light
cavalry raids which allowed him to terrorize the many nomadic tribes to the
north, to the point where they pretty much became Alexandrine client states,
not daring to disturb the empire (though that did lead to fleeing nomadic
tribes smashing much of Celtic Europe, and causing much trouble in Spain and
Italy for Alexander IV). He also took over the civilized Carthaginian-Greek
areas of the Western Mediterranian.

Alexander V "The Obsessive" 222-186
This guy set himself a set of rather difficult conquering goals in his
career, and met all of them. He completed the conquest of India and
Taprobane, finally absorbed the Samnite and Illyrian client states, and
secured southern Gaul, most of Spain, and Transalpine Gaul. He led his
armies against the desert tribes of North Africa and mastered them. He led a
sailing expedition around Africa, and established a satrapy in Crimea. But
his most famous campaign was his grueling (and obsessive, of course)
conquest of the Upper Nile/Aethipoan region, which took him 15 years and
involved numerous expeditions to keep away surrounding tribes. He even led
an army to lake Victoria!

Alexander IX "The Glorious" 121-87
After the mediocre or frantic careers of his predecessors, this Alexander
set the empire back on the right track by completing the conquest of Gaul,
Spain, and all of Europe south of the Danube. He also established a satrapy
in Wallachia/Banat and subdued the German tribes. His exploits in africa
were also notable, including the extension of Alexandrine rule down the east
coast of Africa, the founding of colonies down the west coast, and his
invasion of the Southern tip of Africa, which even tually led to the Greek
state there that persists today. He finally annexed Central Aisan regions of
the Oxus-Jacartes, and in his most celebrated campain, led a massive cavalry
army which destroyed the Huns, a feat which led to conflict with the Han
empire, as he had chased the Huns into Chinese-calimed territory. So he
simply led his army east, and sacked Chang'An :-)

What do you people think?

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

[Shadowstrike]

Considering that the Han Dynasty was at its height near 0 AD, the last part is a bit unrealistic. The other bits are fine, except the time it took to slog through India... that is a bit out of whack...

[Cal]

wait... I thought there was no 0 AD, don't the years just go from 1 BC to 1 AD?

[Michael Daumen]

I've been saying this since before the first scenario contest, there should be a what-if contest. Each participant would state where his timeline diverges from our world's, and what has transpired since then, but after that the only requirement would be to use an actual map of Earth (any scale or location). With no limits as to time & place, this could be as fantasy. Alexander dead at the Granicus? Mayan invaders harrying Carthage's Mediterranean empire? The Muslim conquest of England in the 800s? Cheng Ho's privateers intercepting Francis Drake off Chile? Guerilla Warfare in 1870's Dixie? A Communist revolution in 1917 London? The German-Japanese Cold War following an Axis victory? The Roman Empire in 2000?

[Evil Capitalist]

That would be great- I think there should be a lot more fictional ones about

[Prometeus]

You'll find a lot of chinese units in my Chung Kuo scenario. I know, it's written in italian, and it's about the Warring States period, but a lot of features were in use during the Chou period ( and continued to be in use during the Han dinasty ), such as the interely chinese "ko" model pike...

And, StLeo, Alexander the Great was Alexander III...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited September 14, 2000).]
Sono un somaro, sono un somaro, sono un somaro...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited September 14, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

I know, I know...perhaps you mean St.Leo´s post?


------------------
Civ2000
[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited September 14, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

Sorry, i mean St Leo's one...

[Stefan Härtel]

Hmmm... I somehow don't like the opinion St Leo posted there. If anyone's interested I can post my opinion of Alexander's "afterlife..."

Also, I'd be very interested in something like "what if Jesus was never born?" and "What if Alexander was killed at Pelium 336 or 335 BC?"

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!
Mighty Carthage fought three wars:
It was still mighty after the first one, still inhabitable
after the second one;
It could not be found after the third one.
-Bert Brecht

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[C0ckney]

I for one would like to hear your view Stefan, particualy because St.Leo's make no mention of the Romans.

What if Jesus had never being born? I dont really think that this would have too much historical impact until after the collapse of the western Roman empire, feel free to correct me

[Cal]

I always thought this would make a funny what-if situation...

"What if, instead of being sentenced to death by crucifixion, Jesus was sentenced to life in prison?"

------------------
-Cal

[Stefan Härtel]

I think that if Jesus would have been sentenced to lifelong prison, that would have been just as much a martyrium. The symbol would just not be the crucifix.
I'll post my Alexander thingy when I finish it, so tonite or tomorrow.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!
Mighty Carthage fought three wars:
It was still mighty after the first one, still inhabitable
after the second one;
It could not be found after the third one.
-Bert Brecht

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Stefan Härtel]

Here's my Alexander story. I warn you people, I go very much into detail in some cases!

quote: On June 30th, Alexander breaks up for his Arab campaign. First he surpresses the Nabataeans, and then marches southwards, takes Teima and Leuke Kome. He defeats the Minaeans in two battles (October/November 323) and decides to stay in Yatrib (Madinah) over the winter. In March 322, he leads his army southwards to the kingdom of Saba, defeats them in three battles and lays siege to their capital, Saba (May 322). The kingdom of Katabaran offers little resistance, but after their capital is taken, they surrender. Advancing northeastwards, he takes Hadramaut without resistance, but the Bedouin tribes of the coast refuse to offer support. On one night, they attack the Macedonian camp, kill hundreds of soldiers and take others as prisoners. Although wishing to defeat them in battle, Alexander has no other choice than to give them tribute, for his food and water reserves are rare. Meanwhile, Nearchos arrives at Omana in Maka and forces the Arabs there to surrender. At first they refuse, but a landing party of Nearchos cuts them off of any supplies, so finally they give in. Alexander arrives a month later (August 322). Continuing the policy of Darius I. the Great of Persia (522-486), Alexander decides to turn Elam, on the other side of the Gulf, into a maritime province. To support Tauka, he establishes a new base near today's Abadan, and another one on the northern tip of Maka. Meanwhile (November 322), message arrives from his ally Poros, that he suffers from continuing invasons of the Magadha from greater India, who hope to set Alexander a serious blow. Although Poros and Taxiles both manage to hold off the attacks in the Punjab, the important city of Pattala in the southern Indus valley has already fallen. Alexander decides to begin a campaign against the Maghda, but first he must recruit a new army. Finally, in Febuary 321, he takes off from Alexandreia Elymais (a symbolic act), and crosses the Persian Gulf by boat, well-remembering the disastrous journey through Gedrosia. He lands at Barbaricon, where he immediately encounters a Magadhan army, consisting of 200 elephants, 300 chariots and 2,000 infantrymen. Alexander's army counts 400 elephants, 20,000 infantrymen and 10,000 cavalrymen, and numerous reinforcements that are expected to arrive from Persia in a couple of months. He soundly defeats the Magadha, who retreat across the Tharr desert. Alexander takes back Pattala and meets with his two allies, Taxiles and Poros. Messengers have returned from the Ganges reporting of the dense settlement. They tell of a bombastic city named Pattaliputra in the deep Ganges valley. A city that is as large as Babylon, with wooden walls, and 500 towers. Eager to see it, Alexander breaks up without great preparations. He crosses the Tharr desert with high causualities while his elephants, horsemen and a third of his infantry army are being shipped around the Gurajat penninsula, where they are supposed to convince the independent tribes, most importantly the Rathika and the Bohya, to join the Macedonians, if necessary with military power. Alexander sends out messengers to negotiate with the Magadha, but before they can meet the king at Pattaliputra, they are received by the Mauryan Chandragupta. Desperately, they attempt to arrange an alliance between Chandragupta and Alexander, but all attempts fail. Two envoys are finally killed, others are sent out to deliver the message to Alexander. Alexander arranges a meeting with the Magadhas, in which he sets up an alliance of Magadhans and Macedonians against the coming Mauryan power, who have already seized large portions of India (August 321). Meanwhile, Macedonian reinforcements arrive at Alexander's provisoric camp near Indraprastha. Chandragupta does not hesitate and attacks Alexander's forces with an army that has 750 elephants in it's centre. After a long, bloody battle, Alexander defeats Chandragupta's forces with great causualities. Chandragupta himself flees southwards to Deccan where he hopes to find resistant Indian allies, but encounters with Macedonian garrisons at Bhoya. Chandragupta is taken captive and sent to Alexander, but he decides to "deliver" him to the Magadha for punishement. Meanwhile, the Magadhan king fell ill and ordered Alexander to Pattaliputra. Here, he asks him wether he wants to take the throne of the Magadhans or not. Alexander decides to hand over the throne to Antigonos Monopthalmos, as a reply to his loyal serve to Philippos and Alexander. Now, in December 321, a message arrives from Macedonia, telling of the death of Alexander's mother. Alexander decides to return to Macedonia himself, accompanied by some of his loyal generals, but not with his army. He hands the provisoric command over to Seleukos, who is left in India. In April 320, he arrives in Greece, where he also hears of the death of Aristotelos which occured two years ago. Those who were responsible to bringing these messages are executed. Olympias, Alexander's mother receives a monumental burial at Aigai. From there, Alexander marches into Pella, where he is triumphantly received by the people. This act has propagandical value, for there is now a trustworthy statement that the king is alive and wealthy. In July 320, Alexander leaves for Babylon together with 15,000 new Macedonian and Greek recruits. Despite the political status quo in India, Alexander himself decides to go north to surpress the Scythians, who are once again causing serious disorders. He triumphantly defeats the scythian armies and pursuits them up to the far north, where his soldiers finally revolt, fearing that they would never see their homes again (November 320). Alexander orders to build a new garrison city at Lake Balkash, Alexandreia Eshata Balkash, with a force of 5,000 men. He then returns to India, where he receives message that Antigonos' reign isn't going very well. There are a number of tribes in the south that refuse to accept the Macedonian/Magadhan souvereignity, and Pirates from the south keep terrorizing the coastal provinces of Kalinga and Vanga. At Dantapura, Alexander orders to build a new fleet that is supposed to surround India and, if possible, find the Pirate bases. The expedition is only fairly succesful, and only 98 of the originally 340 ships arrive at Barbaricon. At Pattaliputra, Alexander hears stories, myths and legends of a country named Shangri La, a paradise somewhere in the Himalayan mountains. Alexander decides to find, and, if possible, conquer this country. This idea finds bombastic support, and in the end, 50,000 Iranians, 100,000 Indians and 30,000 men of other conquered countries stand at Alexander's side; accompanied by 600 chariots and 1,000 elephants. The campaign begins in March 319, and is supposed to lead from Pattaliputra to the north. At the first mountains, the soldiers already fear of a new Hindu Kush, but the keep on marching. Eventually, however, as they encounter the really high mountains, the first men retreat, chariots fall down passes or are left behind. Soldiers die of starvation or cold, but Alexander keeps on going. As he sees mountains that are higher than anything else he has ever seen before, he gives command to retreat, and gives up hope to find Shangri La. This point was somewhere around Mt. Everest. As Alexander arrives back in Pattaliputra, he has lost 90,000 men, he himself has frozen off two fingers. A high tribute, but Alexander refuses to give up plans to find Shangri La. But he decides that other things are more important right now. Alexander now leads his army, now consisting of a mere 19,000 men, southwards to Pandya. Here he is quickly succesful, for the man who survived the Himalayans is suppoed to have divine qualities. Even an expedition to Sri Lanka is succesful. New reinforcements are recruited, and a force of 150,000 men is ready by September 319. They are commanded to head for Surparaka, where they are supposed to board the 500 ships waiting for them. Nobody tells them where they are going to, not even if they would return to India. After a three-month long voyage, Alexander meets them at the Sinai penninsula, and tells them they are heading for a campaign against Carthage. But before, the canal of Necho and Dareios the Great between the Nile and the Red Sea is being reconstructed, and the navy sails along the coast, to Leptis Magna. Here, a delegation is sent out to meet the rulers of Carthage, a proud aristocratic republic. As they refuse to surrender, Alexander commands to lay siege on Carthage. The Carthaginian fleet is able to hold the Macedonians for more than 8 months, but in the end, they have to surrender. Carthage is set on fire and many other towns nearby are levelled (April 318). In Sicily, nobody offers resistance to Alexander, and he commands delegations of all Hellene states, including Sparta and the states of the Corinthian League, to Agrigent to discuss the future of the Hellene cities. Only Emporion and Neapolis, which is already under Roman rule, do not take part. The result is the "Pact of Agrigent": All Greek cities, except for Emporion and Neapolis, are nominally under the rule of Macedonia. The pact is organized similarily to the Corinthian League. After the negotiations, Alexander sends out an expedition to Emporion to punish them, and he himself heads, along with his army, to Italy. At Kroton, a Roman delegation meets him, offering an alliance for a political independence. Alexander does not agree; a Roman army meets him at Neapolis. Meanwhile, Alexander gets support from the Samnites, the Umbrians and the Etruscans, who send out money and forces. Alexander takes Neapolis, and lays siege on Rome, which lasts for 2 weeks. Then the Romans surrender. The Italian states are re-organized. Rome, Etruria, Samnitia and Umbria are nominally vassals of Macedonia, all Greek cities join the Agrient Pact. Rome is reduced to Latium, while the other states keep their present shape. Meanwhile, the Phoenecian cities of Iberia and North Africa keep on fighting against Alexander. North Africa is quickly occupied. Saldae, Cartenna and Rusaddir are levelled. Finally, the Macedonians reach the Collumns of Heracles (the ancient description for Gibraltar). Here, Alexander founds a new city, named Alexandreia Eshata Herakleia, as an equivalent to Alexandreia Eshata in Bactria (Khoshdent), and then, later, Alexandreia Eshata Balkash (October 318). Although setting a mark with this city, he sends out a fleet to reach Theon Ochema, as Hanno did around 525 BC. Back in Carthage, which was rebuilt as Alexandreia Karchedon, Alexander receives message from Numidia. The Numidians, who have supported Carthage with cavalry forces, offer Alexander an alliance and backups of 900 horsemen per year. Alexander agrees, if only because the valuable Thessalian horsemen are getting rare and the Sacans refuse to support Alexander. The first horsemen are immediately used to crush a revolt in Gaetulia, a territory south of Numidia. The Moors of today's Morocco are also revolting, but soon meet Macedonian steel. Alexander now sends out several envoys to Iberia, from which he had heard wonderful stories. However, only the Bastetans are ready to receive Alexander as their new souvereign, while the Turdetans and the Oretans refuse to talk to the envoys. Thus, Alexander sails over to Gades, an ancient Phoenecian colony, which immediately surrenders to him. From here, he begins a campaign against the Turdetans. Although he is succesfull at several battles, causualities are high. Thus, in March 317, he retreats to Malacca, having added only the country of the Turdetans to his empire. On the Bactis river, he builds a new city, Alexandreia Baktis, where he leaves a garrisson of 3,000 men. Then, he returns to Alexandreia Karchedon, from where he receives message from Massilia in Gallia Narbonensis. The Massilians complain about Celtic invasions from north and west. Thus, he sends out 5,000 men to defeat the Celts in the north and to expand Massilian territory. Then he returns to Alexandreia Aigyptos. A lot of things have happened here since it's foundation in 332 BC. The city has grown to some 30,000 people, thus being larger than Athens in the mid-5th century BC. Magnificent buildings, mixing Egyptian and Greek styles have been errected. Alexander stays here for 3 months, watching the process of building and gives orders to build a large palace in the city's centre. In August 317 then, he leaves Alexandreia heading for Persia. Arriving in Babylon, he recieves message that the satrap of Media has died and that Media is revolting. Alexander assigns Eumenes as satrap of Media, orders him to crush the revolt and perhaps to expand the satrapy to Cadusia and Caspia. Alexander himself travels to Persepolis, where he orders to rebuild and/or repair the palaces. He then pays a visit to Naqsh-i Rustam and Pasargadae and returns to Alexandreia Elymais, where he boards a ship heading for Deccan. Meanwhile, a lot of things have happened in India. Antigonos barely escaped an attempt on his life, Cosala has revolted, and Chinese delegations arrived at Pattaliputra. Alexander is welcomed triumphantly at his arrival at Simylla in May 316. In July he arrives at Pataliputra, where a new palace has been constructed. Here, he stays for 2 further months, planning further expeditions. In October 316, he leaves for Siam, but he barely arrived at Pentapolis when he receives message of the death of Antigonos. Alexander leaves his army here and returns to Pataliputra to join the mourning. Peukestas, who has been satrap of Persia until 319 and then moved to India to govern the western Ganges valley under Antigonos is crowned as new Magadhan king, and Alexander returns to Pentapolis. Somewhat south of Pentapolis he now founds a new city, Alexandreia Argyra, from where he sails southwards to Temala. The arrival of the Monsun in the dense Jungle finally halts the Macedonian advance, and Alexander is forced to return to Pentapolis. Then, in October 315, he leaves Pentapolis and heads northwards to the Brahmaputra. Following the river, he encounters with the Khiang (February 314). Alexander allys up with them so that they help him in possible conflicts. He then travels northwards and finally encounters with envoys of the Ch'in emperor (April 314). He forces them to surrender, but the Chinese refuse- and position an army at Ba. Alexander, who is now almost 42, for the first time hands over the command of the army-to Ptolemaios. The Chinese army is crushed, but the Ch'in do not even think about handing over Shu, which was occupied merely 2 years ago. At the outskirts of the Daba mountains, the Macedonians have their first defeat since Maraqanda in 329. Ptolemaios is killed in battle. But Alexander does not give up. He asks for reinforcements in India and Khiang. He retreats to Ba, where he errects a new fortress, Alexandreia Shu. The reinforcements arrive in December 314, and count 40,000 infantrymen, 12,000 Indian cavalrymen, 3,000 Persian cavalrymen, 18,000 Numidian cavalrymen, 600 Indian elephants, 3,000 Indian chariots and 900 Chinese chariots. In February 313 he then begins a campaign to the Qinling mountains, and after a 2 month long march and a 4 weeks' siege he takes Ch'in, the former capital of the Ch'in empire. Alarmed by the Macedonian approach to the capital of Xianyang, the Ch'in position an army at the Fen river. Meanwhile, he receives reinforcements from the Xiongnu, an enemy of the Ch'in who lived in the Mongolian steppes. Before going into battle against the Ch'in, however, Alexander sends out envoys to the other kingdoms in China. He receives support from the Chu, the Song and the Qi, while the Lu, the Han, the Wei, the Chou and the Zhao declare war on him. the Yan and the Zhongshan do not reply. Then, in April 313, Alexander goes to battle against the Ch'in; defeating them highly and destroying their empire. In May 313, he arrives at the gates of Loyang, the capital of the Chou empire. The Chou surrender without resistance, and Alexander triumphantly enters Loyang. This triumph is short-lived, because the Han move onto Chou territory, but are immediately defeated. Alexander afterwards lays siege on the Han capital of Xinzheng. Here, he receives message from the Chu, inquiring on their future status. Alexander offers them to become an autonomous satrapy, which is accepted by the Chu. Now, Alexander decides to act in favour of Chinese unity. At Loyang, he proclaims Seleukos as emperor of China. He is accepted only by the Chu, the Qi and the Han, the Song demand a similar status as the Chu, which is not accepted. Thus, all the anti-Macedonian states ally up and demand Alexander to meet them at Handan. Although they are by far suprerior in quantity, Alexander's use of Epameinodas' strategy earns him a great victory; Seleukos is now emperor over all of China. The southern Chinese tribes of the Thai and the Vietnamese accept Seleukos as souvereign. Alexander sends message to Syria, where he commands the Phoenecians and the Judaeans to settle down at the Persian Gulf. In August 311 the arrival is complete, and Phoenecian explorers sail around India, Africa, and arrive in Korea in 309. Alexander himself returns to Persepolis, where the reconstruction of the Persian palaces, and the constructions of new ones are completed; finally, in September 308 he arrives in Alexandreia Aigyptos, where the structures are completed. He is here joined by his 12-year old son, Alexander, and his 6-year old son Perdikkas, both of which born by Roxane. Roxane herself does not appear at Alexandreia but prefers to stay in Babylon. Alexander sends his sons to Greece, where they are supposed to be educated. In 305, he officially names Alexander his crown prince. During the last years, nothing else of great note happened, but in 304, Alexander breaks up for a new campaign into Nubia, to secure Egypt. Successfully, he pushes southwards, stopping only at the Ethiopian mountains. Then, in 301, he assigns his son Alexander to govern the empire during his absence and begins a new campaign-to keep his promise of finding and conquering Shangri La. His army counts 350,000 infantrymen, 120,000 horsemen, 1,300 Indian elephants and 7,500 Indian and Chinese chariots. He does not find Shangri La, however he arrives at the source of the Indus river and finally stops in the Talka Makan desert after having conquered Tibet-with causualities of over 200,000 men. In the end, only 23,000 men return to Pataliputra. Alexander himself fell seriously ill, and makes the return to Bactra, where he stays for 5 months to get better, but his sickness does not go away for good. Finally, in September 298 he arrives in Alexandreia Aigyptos, crippled, nearly unable to walk. In Alexandreia, he receives high honours. He dies on February 21st 297 BC at the age of 59. He is buried in Siwa, and suceeded by Alexander IV. At the time of his death Alexander's empire stretched from Gibraltar to Vietnam and from today's Ethiopia to the Great Wall.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!
Mighty Carthage fought three wars:
It was still mighty after the first one, still inhabitable
after the second one;
It could not be found after the third one.
-Bert Brecht

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Prometeus]

Stefan... Alexander defeated the Ch'in ?
An infantry formation a lot more massive then phalanx?
50 columns of infantrymen heavily weaponed ? 500000 men ? Hmmm... Ch'ang Ping, Ch'ang Ping...
Anyway. the "Three Chin" were under Ch'in attack, so i'm not sure they should have joined Ch'in against Alexander's army...
See my Chung Kuo scenario...
Ah, i forget to tell before... in 323, Kosala was long time destroyed by Maghada's army.

[Prometeus]

And the Huns?