I need help !!!

[Prometeus]

Hy boys !!!
I need some feedbacks about my newcoming scenario, "The rise of Kok Turks", in order to settle the tribes list.
I've decided to put on my scenario:

1) Kok Turks 2) On Ok ("ten fleeches" -> ten tribes, the western Kok Turks ) 3) Juan-juan ( Eastern Avars ) 4) Eftalites ( White Huns ) 5) Chinese 6) Sassanids Persians 7) Nomadic Turks ( leader: the Uygur confederation? Tolis? Qarluq? )

What do you think about it?
Best regards
Prometeus

[Stefan Härtel]

When exactly does your scenario take place in?

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[Cam]

Prometeus,

I noticed that you have posted the identical topic in another Apolyton forum. I appreciate that you're trying to field as many responses as possible to your question by posting several threads, however in future could you please confine your question to a single thread? Should you find that the proverbial 'well' is 'dry' in that nobody responds to your initial post after a couple of days - by all means, try a different forum.

Thanks.

b.t.w. - the idea sounds great - I'm looking forward to see what you conjure up!

[C0ckney]

Great idea there are so few good scenarios about this area (Mongols by Harlan Thompson (I think) is the only one that stands out)
so this should be a rare treat,
Btw I think that the juan-juan are called the jwen-jwen (in English anyway), I could be wrong but just though I'd mention it
Can't wait to see it when its finished


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Cockney used to be schizophereic but we'er ok now

[Prometeus]

Thanks a lot !!!
Weellll ... let's begin !

To Stefan Hartel
I planned the Tu-kue ( chinese for Turks ) to begin in 552 and to come to an end in 681 ( 546-552 --> Bumin suddenly revolts against Eastern Avars; 681 --> Bilga Kaghan begins a second Turkish dinasty - the second Tu-kue empire ).

To Cam
Sorry, my apologies !!! You can be sure this is the very last time i do that mess...


To COckney
I don't know ... before Chinese government adopted "pin-ying" translation code, each national language had a different way to translate the same word - Juan-juan is the italian version i have on the book: are you sure about "jwen-jwen" english version ?
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

[C0ckney]

Yes I am fairly sure about the translation, because bu-min revotled against them and nearly destroyed the entire Jwen-Jwen people in the process, but he died before he could exploit his victories, this being left to his sons and bother.
Hope this helps.
Just one question is this scenario going to be about Bu-min and his sons or about the general situation it central asia at this time?

Edit: The source of the translation is a rather large book entitled anicent and medieval history published in about 1950, I found it to be very accurate (albeit slightly opinionated) so far.
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Cockney used to be schizophereic but we'er ok now
[This message has been edited by C0ckney (edited June 18, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

To COckney
The scenario is about Bu-min Kaghan, but it includes his sons, his brother Istemi Kaghan and his son Tardu *, so it's somewhere in the middle. I wanted to show the Central Asia situation also - their historical figures are planned to be the mirror to show these times.
P.S. Bu-min - according to my sources - DESTROYED THE ENTIRE Eastern Avars PEOPLE, he died the year after due to battle wounds.
Western Avars were a totally different people - nomad formations change their names the same way trees changes their leaves.
Yeep, you're right ! If Bu-min was dead for good in 553, perhaps 546 is a better year to start ...
Anyway, my source is Jean Paul Roux's book, "A history of the Turks".

* Edit: i mean, it includes the On ok-western Kok Turks empire also ( i planned Kok Turks wars against juan-juan/jwen-jwen and chinese, and On Ok to fight against Persians and Eftalites, with nomadic Turks acting as "free dogs" in this situation - not to mention the fratricide war between Kok Turks and On Ok at the middle of this scenario; pretty wild fight, huh ? "Rivers of blood, prepare yourself to get pale for envy", Remunnu e'Locu translated - quite badly -into english ) ...

To Stefan Hartel
Another historical event i notice i've missed: the Muslim conquest of Persia !!! What do you think about a Tech trick in order to replace Persian units with brand-new Muslim ones ? Maybe i can rename Persians Iranians or something ...
(ex. if Persians units --> U1, then i'll fire them with an obsolescence tech U2 that brings brand-new Muslim units )
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

Yeah, you're right. I'll manage to settle only the oriental Iran in this scenario then - the Kushana former land - in order to mantain the history on tracks as long as possible ( it was the last to be conquered by Muslims after 680 - scenario comes to an end in 681 ).

P.S. yes, but late in 553, a little before his death, Bu-min Kaghan ( or his son after his death in 552 according to your sources ), demanded them back to China; they were ALL executed on the border of the Chinese Great Wall ... but this is a secondary matter of fact, because the Avar/Juan-juan/Jwen-jwen Khanate was already destroyed for good.
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

[C0ckney]

Great I'm glad I could be of help,
just one little thing I'd like to ask, would it possible for me to playtest the scenario when it is done? (although I do understand this may take a while)

P.S thank you for the infomation about the Jwen-Jwen (looking through my book I find it does tent to omit the more grumsome details)

[Prometeus]

To COckney
Sure !!! you're welcome ... i'll send it to you when it'll be finished - in a couple of weeks or three ( yup, i work a little slowest when i have to follow history paths...).
Maybe i can solve Bu-min problem by not mentioning him - or maybe i can mention him only in Events.txt, then i can create the son unit - i mean, i can even put as Kok-Turkish chief his son ( titled as "yaghbu" ), or a more generic Great Qaghan, emperor of yadda yadda...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

[C0ckney]

546 would be a good year to start, especialy you could simulate a huge battle or series of battles in which Bu-min could defeat the Jwen-Jwen, but I think this to be historically accurate would have to be handeled with care (i.e if you had a Bu min unit then how would get rid of him in time for his death!). Personaly I think that it might be better to start a little later and concentrate on Bu min's decendents empire but thats just an idea.
When you say the muslim conquest of Persia do you mean the first raids around 640 or the more lasting conquest of about 680-700 AD, it is also worth noting that arab power suffeed an eclipse bettween about 668-680 because of interal difficulties.
Also from about 750 onwards the arab became incresingly persianised so you may have to a third advance which changes the arab units back into persian ones! This all depends on how long your scenario will be.
Hope this helps.

Edit: The Jwen-Jwen were not completely destroyed but instead the battered reminates took refuge in Northern China (well at least according to my book)
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Cockney used to be schizophereic but we'er ok now
[This message has been edited by C0ckney (edited June 19, 2000).]