Alternative History Scenario - What if Nazi Germany Won WWII?

[broman]

Hi guys,

interesting discussion and possible scenario.

One comment i would like to make is that Nazi Germany was also developing a nuclear bomb. The defeaut of Germany benefitted the American Mahatten Project. German scientists and information was used to speed up the completion.

I seems realistic to assume that Germany produced a nuke before or at the same time as the US (for the scenario say the end of '43 of begin '44). This gives Germany a great weapon to threathen the UK and the USSR and end WWII under their conditions.

This could creatie a cold war/ WWIII situation with 2 or 3 world powers (Germany, US and Japan).

Broman

[jim panse]

I don´t agree. British Commandos destroyed the only facility for producing Heavy Water in Norway in - guess - 1943. Also Hitler ordered to stop all weapons research/production to stop that could not be ready for war within 6 months after his victory over France.

[jim panse]

Something to add: This research/production stop affected the Atomic Bomb research in the same way as it affected further Jet Engine research. The Me-262, the first Jet Engine propulsed aircraft ever, flew for its first time in 1940. But Hitler halted research/production because of the cause mentioned above.

Some have seen forward what may become of Germany in a couple of years. Luftwaffen General Ernst Udet (the one in Carl Zuckmayer´s "Des Teufels General" - "Devil´s General" is based upon) commited suicide in 1941 because he saw that Germany would need urgently Fighters. And the Jet Fighters may have turned the tide because the German Me-262 outclassed its allied and soviet counterparts totally, mostly by being faster.

And the nuclear resaerch has never came that far than Tube Alloys or the Manhattan Project came. Not only du to the loss of the Heavy Water Facility but also because Germany had not the capacities as England AND the US had.


In my opinion there are 2 (moretheless) realistic possibilities for Germany winning WW2:

(1) The thing I mentioned above concerning the policy towards the Soviet Population.

(2) Neville Chamberlain never went to Munich to negotiate the destruction of Chechoslovakia in autumn 1938 and Hitler guided Europe a year earlier to war. At that moment the German Army, Navy and Airforce outnumbered their allied counterparts by much more than on September 1, 1939. Maybe this would have become a European War were Germany would have won before the US could have intervened.

[Willhelm II]

What would happen if Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists became leader of Britain in 1937?

Mosley had always opposed a war with Germany, and if Mosley had become Prime Minister (and Dictator) of Britain, then would Britain have joined Germany in a 'crusade for the salvation of our European civilization & culture' against the soviets?

[Jim Winchell]

Originally posted by jim panse
(2) Neville Chamberlain never went to Munich to negotiate the destruction of Chechoslovakia in autumn 1938 and Hitler guided Europe a year earlier to war. At that moment the German Army, Navy and Airforce outnumbered their allied counterparts by much more than on September 1, 1939. Maybe this would have become a European War were Germany would have won before the US could have intervened.

I disagree and opine that this might have been the shortest European war had the French and British come the aid of the Czechs in 1938. The Czechs were determined to defend their country, had heavily fortified the Sudentenland (with several forts based upon the Maginot Line-type fortifications), and had a well-trained and well-armed army. Several high-ranking members of the German military were prepared to move against Hitler if the French mobilized and invaded Germany while the German army was tied down invading Czechoslovakia.

The Czechs gave up after being abandoned by their Allies at Munich and losing the Sudentenland--a natural defense belt between Germany and Czechoslovakia. When the rest of Czechoslovakia was occupied in early 1939, the Germans obtained Czech weapons, tanks and materiel sufficient to outfit many new German divisions, including panzer divisions with the Pzkw38-type Czech tanks, that rolled across France in May of 1940.

The only advantage that Germany had over the Allies at any point up to May of 1940 was in air power and tactics.

[Jim Winchell]

It might be interesting to have a scenario where the Nazis lost out to the Communists for the struggle to control the Depression-era German government. Europe in the late 1930s would consist of a weak Germany, torn by internal strife and aligned with the Soviets which would be the primary aggressor. Without Germany to stop them, the Soviets would have a free hand in Finland, the Baltics, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans. Without the aid of Germany (or with a Communist-controlled Germany aiding the Republicans), Spain might still be in the middle of a civil war or Franco may have lost to the Republicans. Europe in 1939 might very well look like it did post-WWII, with the Soviets in control of Eastern Europe and most or all of Germany.

[jim panse]

I disagree and opine that this might have been the shortest European war had the French and British come the aid of the Czechs in 1938. The Czechs were determined to defend their country, had heavily fortified the Sudentenland (with several forts based upon the Maginot Line-type fortifications), and had a well-trained and well-armed army.

After the Anschluss of Austria in March 1938 the sophisticated fortifications were more wothless than ever because Germany would have marched to Prague from the South, via the Ostmark.

Several high-ranking members of the German military were prepared to move against Hitler if the French mobilized and invaded Germany while the German army was tied down invading Czechoslovakia.

This is correct. These men were e.g. Gen. Ludwig Beck, Chief of the Staff, and Gen. Hoepner, Commander of a Tank Division, who told his compatriots that he would arrest Hitler immediately after the machine of the Führer had landed in Berlin. He abandoned the project because Chamberlain came to Munich.

That´s not the best, you´re right. Hoepner said later that "We could arrest and remove from power a man gone mad leading Germany into a war it cannot win but we couldn´t have arrested a politician negotiating the peaceful return of the German Minority in the Sudetenland into the arms of the Reich with the British Prime Minister".

[Panda]

existing literature,

of course the most famous of which is Phillip K. ****'s The Man in the High Castle

Also: SS-GB, Len Deighton; Fatherland, Robert Harris

Interested in counter-factual history?

http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/counterf.htm

[Panda]

Oh jesus, how stupid that D.I.C.K. is censored.

[Michael Daumen]

Originally posted by Andrew Livings
Oh jesus, how stupid that D.I.C.K. is censored.

Amen.

Re the Czech crisis, Shirer's _The Nightmare Years_ contains an excellent discussion of these events.

[Willhelm II]

Possible Timeline

1933
January 30th Adolf Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany.

1936
March 7 Rhineland invaded by German Troops

1937
May 28th British Fascist leader Oswald Mosley becomes Prime Minister of Great Britain.

1938
March 12th German troops invade Austria.

October 1 Czechoslovakian Sudetenland occupied by German army.

September 29th Germany, Italy & Britain form an alliance: The Berlin Pact.

1939
May 22 Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary & Finland Join the Berlin Pact.

August 23 The Anti-Bolshevik Berlin Pact begins economic sanctions on the Soviet Union.

September 1st Germany Invades Poland.


...What happens next?

[jim panse]

I would like to include the following facts:

Late in the Spanish Civil War a high-ranking Republican Official said that only a European War may save the Republican Spain. Only a few days later the vessel "Deutschland" was attacked during the sea blockade.

Maybe this could have been the reason why Chamberlain was replaced. And maybe also the reason for a war ....

[Willhelm II]

Originally posted by jim panse
I would like to include the following facts:

Late in the Spanish Civil War a high-ranking Republican Official said that only a European War may save the Republican Spain. Only a few days later the vessel "Deutschland" was attacked during the sea blockade.

Maybe this could have been the reason why Chamberlain was replaced. And maybe also the reason for a war ....

In this timeline, Chamberlain did not even become Prime Minister - The British Union of Fascists (for some reason) gained politcal power in Britain winning the 1937 Election...

[jim panse]

some kind of pervert + ugly thing to think of ....

[Willhelm II]

Originally posted by jim panse
some kind of pervert + ugly thing to think of ....

???