Alternative History Scenario - What if Nazi Germany Won WWII?

[Caspian]

Well, in the book "Fatherland" germany had conveniently developed its own bomb in the nick of time and had threatened to nuke London as a reprisal. This resulted in a stalemate and an alternative cold war situation. I can't remember why there was still a war in Russia...presumebly the allies didn't give a pop about Stalin.

[Willhelm II]

July 1, 1960 - The Greater German Reich puts the first man on the moon.

[Caspian]

That is actually a very scary thought. The astronaught needs to be making a nazi salute instead. Just as well he's not..it would give me nightmares

[Willhelm II]

This could make an intresting story set. All we need to do is write up a timeline spanning from 1945 to the distant future.

[Michael Daumen]

Originally posted by Willhelm II


What if the Americans pull out of the war?

It was Hitler who declared war on the US in December 1941, not the other way around. Granted, America was practically an ally by then but Hitler could have bought time by making US intervention in Europe FDR's call. Say in an alt-hist Hitler's evidence of Soviet atrocities beats Stalin's evidence of Nazi atrocities, leading to a non-agression pact with Washington. Without US aid there's stalemate in Western Europe, at least until Nazi sucess in the East....

Hey, it's just an althist.

[Pap1723]

It was Hitler who declared war on the US in December 1941, not the other way around. Granted, America was practically an ally by then but Hitler could have bought time by making US intervention in Europe FDR's call. Say in an alt-hist Hitler's evidence of Soviet atrocities beats Stalin's evidence of Nazi atrocities, leading to a non-agression pact with Washington. Without US aid there's stalemate in Western Europe, at least until Nazi sucess in the East....

I like that, best idea I've heard so far.

[atomant]

Perhaps as an addition, Nazi espinonage penetration of teh D-day landing planning allowed them to in turn develop their own ruse. When the landings took place the allies were pounded back into the sea. The vast loss of life toppled the American governments (Isolationaist rise, again, in the states and pacifist in Britian.)

Non-aggression treaty is signed with America (in return for Germany renoucing their Treaty with the Japanese and America cancelling support for the USSR.) After all, the Japanese are (from the Nazi perspective) not remotely related to the pure 'Ayran' race.

Britian signs a Versaille type treaty with the Germans. Effectively Britian becomes a vasal state of europe. Spain openly becomes pro-nazi, in line with its facist government. The British Commonwealth fragments, some support American war against Japan, others become neutrals.

American continues war against Japan and to save 'face' from its disasterous European adventures, accelerates research into Nuclear Fission and nukes Japan to ensure early capitulation. Germans capture Moscow, USSR retreats and attempts to rebuild 'beyond' the Urals.

THis brief hyoptehical history leaves out China, Indochina and Africa. I do not envy the scenario builder who attempts this one. But I am willing to play test it. :-)

[jim panse]

US nuking Berlin?

I cannot imagined this. Yeah, Ive heard that the nukes were initially for Berlin (the "Reichshauptsstadt") and Vienna (the 2nd important city in the German Empire). I also heard that the US never would have nuked german cities .... for there was a strong german minority in the US ....

The only problem I see with this whole thing is that the Americans would have nuked Berlin, or the industrial cities on the Rhine. With America's lead in atomic weapons I don't see how they ever could have "lost". The only way would have been if Germany had taken control of Britain, Iceland, and Greenland. That way the Americans would have no way to deliver the atomic weapons.

And after all, if "Unternehmen Barbarossa" would have succeded following the German Plans the USSR would have surrendered in December/January 1941/42 and Hitler could have faced the Allies in the West with more than Invalids, Hitler Youth and Volkssturm. In that case I would say that in midst of spring 1942 Egypt would have been lost, the Suez Channel too and Palestine would have been given to the Muslims. Finally Englands sues for peace

America drops the Bomb on Japan, and the war is over in the pacific - but Nazi germany still controlls most of Europe, and as a result of having even more advanced weapons and rockets, a cold war develops between the two new super powers.

And this could have lead to a Cold War of the two Superpowers USA and the Great Reich.

[atomant]

I seem to remember one movie, the philidelphia experient two, or something else two anyways. The film is set in the late 80's and the plot is something like a stealth aircraft on its way to germany gets caught in a time storm and transported back in time to Nazi Germany. The plane had one nuclear weapon. A Nazi scientist claims he invested the stealth bomber/fighter and the Nazis use this plane and bomb washington and threaten to nuke other American cities if they don't pull out of the war or surrender or some such.

The trouble is that for some reason, the aircraft delivery the ordinence is obilierated in the nuclear fireball and the Nazis of course do not have the tech to rebuild it and have been trying for forty odd years to do it. America becomes a german province, but there are still rebels, one notably being something called 'Free Alaska' My memory is a little scetchy but the bottom line is that a freak 'time' accident causes an alternate time line to develop.

[ottok]

If USA has langugea is Deuthland or conferens make pact with Deuthland and ww2 they... so then maybe
it is wery possibly that Nazis win wwII
But ww3 begin at 1980 and now it is. Howewer ww3 is also pacties change enemy...
And also vice versa...

[lord of the mark]

ottok is on the right track with this - you need a VERY early Point of departure to (EG German speaking US) to change the outcome in WW2. Even a neutral US probably doesnt do it, given the sheer material advatages the USSR had over Germany, and the inability of Germany to strike at USSR productive resources east of the Urals. A military victory over the USSR is virtually impossible, and ultimately the USSR will build up enough to beat Germany, its only a matter of time. Only thing I can think of that makes a German win possible is a political breakup and possible civil war in the rump (mainly trans-Ural) USSR. But then any AH would have to reflect that.

[Michael Daumen]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
ottok is on the right track with this - you need a VERY early Point of departure to (EG German speaking US) to change the outcome in WW2.

....

Only thing I can think of that makes a German win possible is a political breakup and possible civil war in the rump (mainly trans-Ural) USSR. But then any AH would have to reflect that.

For a decisive military victory of Germany over the Sovs, sure. But I could see an armistice signed in 1943 or so, ending the fighting but not the hostility. Then a German-Soviet Cold War to end the world.

For chaos in Russia, you don't need to go that far back. One generation tops.

[Pap1723]

Have Barbarossa start when it was originally planned for so the Germans make it to Moscow before Winter tiem.

Pap

[jim panse]

For a decisive military victory of Germany over the Sovs, sure. But I could see an armistice signed in 1943 or so, ending the fighting but not the hostility. Then a German-Soviet Cold War to end the world.

During Operation Taifun (Typhoon) there have been some riots in Moscow demanding peace with Germany and the end of communism.

In my opinion I could alos imagine an other outcome of Unternehmen Barbarossa if Germany would not have treated the people of the USSR as unworthy scum. I guess that freeing the people of the USSR from communism could have had THE major impact on the Soviet System. Many German Generals knew this but the directives from Hitler forbade this.

This could have also been a point were Germany lost. I think freeing the people together with defeating the Red Army so far as Germany came by December 1941 may have turned the tides.


And do not forget the Battle of Kiev. What could ever have happened if Hitler ordered the assault in mid September not on Kiev but on Moscow?

And also remeber the words of Hitler: "The citadels of Communism are Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. If these cities fall, so will Communism."

The initial plan of Hitler was to defeat Stalin in s ahort Blitzkrieg in the summer (Stalins plan was defeating Hitler in a short war during winter).

Have Barbarossa start when it was originally planned for so the Germans make it to Moscow before Winter tiem.

And what about the reason for the postponing of Barbarossa? Would you have the Italians lose the war within 3 months in autumn 1940?


I would start some Alternate History Scenario after the lost Air Battle against England with "Unternehmen Felix".

As Barbarossa was the plan against Russia, Felix was (mainly) von Brauchitsch plan against England in the Med. This would have been more interesting. Imagine: Italy at war in Albania/Greece and the North African desert, German Elite Fallschirmjäger taking Gibraltar and Spain entering the war as a member of the Axis. Before the meeting between Hitler and Franco in Hendaye this was also a quite popular option for the German Empire.

[Jim Winchell]

Newt Gingrinch (former Speaker of the House) co-wrote an alternate-history book called "1945." In it, Kennedy (JFK's dad, ambassador to England in 1939-40, and a Hitler-appeaser) is elected president and keeps the US out of the European war. England holds the Germans in North Africa and a cease-fire is negotiated, but Germany pushes the Soviets back to the Urals. In 1945, Germany launches a surprise attack on England, with Rommel spearheading an amphibious invasion in Scotland from Norway, while most of the British army is tied down defending Egypt. Germany also launches a commando raid on the US, with long-range aircraft seizing airfields and unloading paratroopers that destroy the test reactors and facilities being used by the US to create the atomic bomb. The book ends with the US rushing early jet-fighter aircraft and pilots to defend England. There was supposed to be another book, but I don't think there was.