Tank design for WW2 scenario

[Steff]

Currently I am working on a WW2 scenario with Germany, Italy, France, Great Britain, USA, Russia, Neutrals and Scandinavia and there occurs a problem with the tanks. There are three different tank designs (I to III) to research. For Germany I used the PzKw III, PzKw IV and the PzKw VI Tiger. For Russia the KV II, the T34 and the JS II. For the US and Great Britain I cannot split up the tanks due to the limited unitslots so I have to use one(three) for both countries. At present I used the Matilda MkII (tank design I), Grant/Lee (tank design II) and the Sherman (tank design III). Has anybody a better idea because the Matilda seems to be no good choice ?

[Jimmywax]

Instead of the Matilda maybe start out with the M3/5 Stuart/Honey. A light tank that both countries used. Or maybe forget the first one all together and add the Pershing on the end.

[Steff]

Good idea with the Stuart. I will include it. Attached is my actual unit file. The only unit created by myself is the SM 79 torpedo bomber. All other units and shield were created by captain nemo, tanelorm and others......

Maybe you have an idea what I can change else....

[fairline]

When does the scenario start Steff? judging by the Polish units I guess it's 1939, in which case the Stuart wasn't issued to the British 8th Army until mid '41 IIRC. Have you thought of using a batch file to replace units without taking up slots, as in Red Front?

[Steff]

fairline, the scenario should start shortly before 1st september 1939 and it lasts till...... Of course I thought about creating a batch file with the possibilty of more units. But I do not like such "complicated" scenarios with a lot of unit, rules and terrain files. So I restricted the number of units and only have a summer and winter edition. You can play in summer or in winter times. It's up to you and there is no specific rule to change seasons. Just do as you like it. Due to the limited units I had problems with history. I think there was no american Matilda tank and the infantry is only an english version. I tried to make it as historically correct as possible but sometimes it was not possible, sorry. But I think it is quite good......

[Steff]

Here Is a screenshot of the eastern campaign....

[klesh]

looks to me like you're using the PzKw's II, IV and VI... not the III as described. I think that is best though, evens it out a bit. If I were you, I'd remove the Kv-2 for the Kv-1, a much more important tank imho.

-FMK.

[Case]

Yeah, the KV-2 was considered a total failure and the Soviets were fairly quick to phase it out.

The US didn't really have a tank force untill about 1941, so the Matilda II should be fine. It was Britain's best tank of the period, and some would have been issued to the US had it entered the war. If you want a US tank progression it should be M-2, M-4 and M-26(?) Pereshing.

Fore the Germans, the Tiger I was actually introduced before the Panther. From memory, Tiger I's were introduced during late 1942 and Panthers didn't really show up in significant numbers untill mid 1943, and didn't become mechanically reliable untill later that year. Anyway, the Tiger series was more a specialised tank then a main battle tank like the Pz III and Panther.

BTW, why have you given the Germans both the He-111 and Ju-88? These aircraft were broadly similar, so you could get rid of one of them and free up a unit slot.

[Steff]

Thats right, I used the PzKw II and named it wrong, sorry.
The idea with the removal of the KV II is good, i will introduce the KV I.

Well, now the problem with the He 111 and the Ju 88. Of course both were in service at nearly the same time. In my scenario I have two bomber research states. Bombers I and Bombesr II. You can see the units in my previous post. Another possibility besides the Ju 88 was the He 177 Greif. But in WW2 it was not such an important bomber for the Germans due to technical problems. And it was rather a long range bomber or should it be. And with a german long range bomber the scenario would be easier for the german side as targets behind the Ural could be bombed. So I took a later version of the Ju 88 with a little bit more range as the He 111 (8 and 10) to get the scenario more balanced. In a first beta version of my scenario I had the Ar 234 (Bombers II combined with Jet Engine). So what do you think about this solution ?

Another word to the tanks. At the beginning all countries have tank design I except Russia. They only have the BA-10. I already thought about the BT-7 to replace the BA-10 as a light tank. The KV II or the KV I should be their first heavy tank but should be outclassed by the german tanks. So the KV II is not such a bad solution because the KV I was really hard for the Germans due to its heavy armor. With the research of tank design II (T34, SU 76) the game will change and the russian tanks will be a real threat to the Germans.
That was my intention.....

[Case]

Originally posted by Steff
Well, now the problem with the He 111 and the Ju 88. Of course both were in service at nearly the same time. In my scenario I have two bomber research states. Bombers I and Bombesr II. You can see the units in my previous post.

Oh, OK. Personally I'd use the Ar 234, which was a fairly promising aircraft, but what you're currently doing makes lots of sence.

Another word to the tanks. At the beginning all countries have tank design I except Russia. They only have the BA-10.

The Soviets had a huge fleet of tanks in 1939. The Soviet tank force in 1939-41 was crippled more by poor organisation and doctrine then any shortages of tanks. However, as the Soviets used tanks primarily to support infantry, it would make more sence to give the Soviets the tank design tech, but no seperate tank units.

[Steff]

Hmmm, I must say that's correct what you say about the russian tank fleet. But when I give the russians tank design I, they automatically will get the KV I or II. So I gave the russians the tech "armoured cars" thats more or less the same as tank design I but with poor armour. So I could replace the BA-10 with the BT-5 or BT-7 so the russians will have poor tanks.....

[kobayashi]

For the first allied tank, I'd go with Matilda IIs, they were actually used in the Battle of Arras in 1940. The Sherman (not the firefly version) should be the second Allied tank. It definitely isn't even close to being the third tank. The third tank should either be a Cromwell, Cruiser Comet or Pershing.

German tanks should be Pz II, IV and V which were the main variants made in any great number.

Consider using the Junkers 188E to differentiate it from the earlier Junkers 88. Or even name it the Ju 388, about 50 were delivered so I guess it should qualify.

[Steff]

kobayashi, great Idea with the Ju188E.

Concerning the third tank of the USA and GB I have a different opinion. Only a few Pershings saw service on german battle fields and the main allied tank in 1944/45 was the Sherman. The german opponent to the Pershing would be the Tiger II. Comparing the american and english tank groups there were more Shermans than Cromwells or Comets, so I have chosen the Sherman.

Concerning the german tanks, I would prever the PzKw VI (Tiger) because it was build in higher numbers and was the most known german tank. Of course the PzKw V (Panther) was the better tank due its speed and armour technic.

[fairline]

Steff, IIRC the Tiger was only ever issued to 5 or 6 independent heavy tank battallions, a handful of SS pz Divisions and the GD and Lehr Pz Divisions. By 1944 of the 2 abteilung (battalions) in a standard German Panzer Division, generally 1 was equiped with PzKw IVHs and 1 was equiped with PzKw V Panthers. There were a few PzKw IIIs knocking around as well.

There were about 6000 Panthers built as aopposed to around 1800 Tigers and Tiger IIs. I'd go for the Panther if widespread use is your criteria - it had a better AT cpability than the Tiger and it's sloped front glacis arrmour gave better protection but the Tiger had far superior side and rear armour, and a better HE capability.

[Jimmywax]

Allrighty then, I didn't know when your scenario started and just assumed that it started in Dec 1941. (typical American huh) Since it is starting before that I would give the Allies the Matilda but make it so the Americans cannot build it.That is unless you want them to join the war early. Case is right on the account that we didn't have jack **** in the area of armor. Stupid politicians and old out dated tactics are to blame for that.