Do you make maps from scratch?

[cavebear]

Then I need to talk to you. In the lonmg term, I would like to get better at it, though I think I am pretty good right now. In the short-term, I need a map for a game of specific requirements.

So, does anyone make maps and want to compare details?

[Snog]

I make maps from scratch. I use elevation and vegetation models as references (for historical maps.)

At least as important as accuracy (for scenario maps) is playability and interest. I feel I'm pretty good at that; drawing my experience from a decade of civ playing.

So far the only maps I've made are fictional or maps including some part or all of the western hemisphere.

Is there anything specific you wanted to talk about?

[cavebear]

Yes. I have 2 purposes.

First, I make interesting and playable maps, but I want to learn how to make better ones. For example, I'm not sure that I have figured out the best way to assign set starting positions to all the Civs. The best I can do is get them grouped by color with starting positions separated by a tile.

Second, I'm in the position of wanting to start a Diplo game with an unknown, but balanced map. Since it would be unfair to make it myself (I will be playing it), I need someone to make a map unknown to me.

I have some specific ideas I would like to incorporate into the game map. Do you enjoy making non-real-world maps to specific ideas?

[Snog]

Sure what size did you have in mind and what are your ideas. Also what do you mean by a diplo game?

[cavebear]

quote: Originally posted by Snog on 01-08-2001 01:54 AM Sure what size did you have in mind and what are your ideas. Also what do you mean by a diplo game?

A diplo game is MP Civ2 game with Diplomacy as the prime object. Players are not generally eliminated, and negotiations between Players settle most disputes.

There will be 7 Human Players, so I am looking for a 75x100 map. The map should be mostly large continents (Earthlike, but differently shaped). The terrain should be mostly temperate (no large blocks of desert, jungle, mountain, or swamp). Since 7 civs will be continuing the whole game, there is little point in having lots of unusable land.

The special features I want are:

Circumnavigable waters at the poles, with ice at the very poles for land unit movement. The polar ice should be reachable by land bridges in a few spots from the continents.

Preset resouces and civ starting positions. Further, the start positions should be well-scaterred and offer some equitable resource in the settler's initial view. A whale, preferably, but buffalo, corn, etc if not on the coast.

We would like the huts eliminated.

Map settings would include village barbarians only, 1x1x movement and production, King level.

Does that sound doable?

[Snog]

Sounds very doable; except to wipe out the goody huts, I need to make a .sav or .scn file. So instead of using the start on premade world you would have to use load saved game; is that ok?

Also isn't circumnavigible at the poles and land bridges connecting to the poles a contradiction?

The size 75x100 seems reasonable. It's half way in between a square (50x100) and the 2:1 ratio of a mercator projection (100x100).

--Snog

[cavebear]

quote: Originally posted by Snog on 01-09-2001 05:46 PM Sounds very doable; except to wipe out the goody huts, I need to make a .sav or .scn file. So instead of using the start on premade world you would have to use load saved game; is that ok?

That should be fine.

quote: Also isn't circumnavigible at the poles and land bridges connecting to the poles a contradiction?

There's a trick I figured out. If you use land terrain in the North and South tiles and Ocean terrain in the East and West tiles, then land units can cross North/South and ships cross East/West.

quote: The size 75x100 seems reasonable. It's half way in between a square (50x100) and the 2:1 ratio of a mercator projection (100x100).

I thought 75x120 was the standard "large" map. But if not, 75x100 should work.

Thank you so much for helping me out on this.

cavebear

[Snog]

Before you said 75x100, but 75x120 is ok too. Just give me a couple days to get the scenario i'm doing into the play-test phase and then i'll whip up a map for you. How many civs are going to be on it? Or better yet, how many starting positions should I concern myself with? (Should there be the option of using any of the 21... just the first 7, the first 5, the first 15? let me know)

--Snog

[cavebear]

Oops, the original "75x100" was a typo. I meant 75x120.

There will be 7 Human civs. I assume it would be easier to set up 7 than all 21. I am trying to get the players to choose their Civs now, but I will assign them if required.

[Stefan Härtel]

My greatest problem ist terrain distribution on large-scale maps.
I have made a map of medieval Iran containing Afghanistan and parts of India, which I think is very good, but it is large, meaning the square-by-square terrain stuff is impossible.

[donwebb]

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel on 01-10-2001 10:52 AM I have made a map of medieval Iran containing Afghanistan and parts of India, which I think is very good, but it is large, meaning the square-by-square terrain stuff is impossible.

This may be a bit off the subject, sorry, but I need some advice.

I have a lot of real-world maps, especially Europe and parts of the "Near East." My trade policy is to ship freights by sea whenever possible. The easiest trade routes go through the Mediterranean and Black and Red seas. But since the land masses are all connected, doesn't that reduce trade revenue?

In other words, is there an advantage to constructing artificial sea lanes -- which means the map is no longer "real world" -- in order to make sure that trade cities are located on different continents separated by straits?

[cavebear]

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel on 01-10-2001 10:52 AM My greatest problem ist terrain distribution on large-scale maps. I have made a map of medieval Iran containing Afghanistan and parts of India, which I think is very good, but it is large, meaning the square-by-square terrain stuff is impossible.

I first draw my coastlines in 1x1 grass. After that, I usually fill in appropriate sections of the map using the predominant terrain and click&drag the cursor in those areas using the 3x3 brush. Next, I play around with resource seeding until I see something I like. Then I go back to 1x1 brush and place the rivers, mountains, forest, and hills in that order. Other terrain gets the one tile at a time treatment last.

BTW, save often!

[cavebear]

quote: Originally posted by donwebb on 01-10-2001 07:09 PM This may be a bit off the subject, sorry, but I need some advice. I have a lot of real-world maps, especially Europe and parts of the "Near East." My trade policy is to ship freights by sea whenever possible. The easiest trade routes go through the Mediterranean and Black and Red seas. But since the land masses are all connected, doesn't that reduce trade revenue?

Yes, it does. The program identifies every unique land mass (from a 1 tile island to the largest continent) by assigning a number for each. Cities with the same landmass number in their coordinates will not give overseas trade bonuses.

quote: In other words, is there an advantage to constructing artificial sea lanes -- which means the map is no longer "real world" -- in order to make sure that trade cities are located on different continents separated by straits?

If the scale of your map is small enough, wider rivers will not look too out-of-place. I would suggest the following:

Make your major rivers using ocean squares, one tile wide, and consider a similarly constructed "canal" to connect to another body of water. This will create unique landmasses for trade purposes. To maintain the normal river resource benefits, add river tiles along both edges of your "ocean-river". It won't be "perfect" real-world, but it will be close. Keep in mind that if you put ocean squares along a diagonal, it will look like a series of ponds, and that somewhat disguises your "canal".

Now, to allow both navigation *and* land unit crossing of your "ocean-river", create what I call a land/ocean intersection". Picture 4 tiles in a diamond shape (all intersecting at one point. On 2 opposite tiles, place land terrain, and on the other 2 opposite tiles, place ocean terrain. You will find that the map shows a little water line between the ocean tiles. Ships can move between the 2 ocean tiles, and land units can move between the 2 land tiles!

[Snog]

Cavebear,

I was unsure what a diplo-game was, but I just read a "diplogame faq" I found by searching the messages.

I was wondering... do you think we could have a diplogame using my new scenario which I am going to bring into the play-testing phase today or tomorrow?

There are many aspects to it which are well suited for a diplogame: a new map which I worked hard on, 7 playable civs which I worked hard to balance, and a loose basis on history, which could make the posts more interesting. Right now it's a fairly long scenario.. 200 turns covering 400 years, although one of the reasons I'm play-testing is to try to get a feel for the right length of time that it should last.

There is at least one potential problem I foresee.. there are basically two groups of civs: the three native american civs, and the 4 european civs. They start out with very different circumstances. But there's a lot of barbarian cities and special events which could certainly make the story-line more fun.

Do you think it would work? Would you like to look over the scenario to get a feel for it? Maybe it would be better to hold off until I feel it has passed the play-testing phase first. I'm not sure.

If it would work, it would certainly give me a huge amount of feedback on the scenario, and probably help me greatly to improve it.

What do you think?

--Snog

[cavebear]

Snog -

I'd be glad to look at the scenario for a future diplogame use; it sounds interesting. However, the conditions for the diplogame I am planning right now have already been worked out with the other players, so I need to stick with those.

Have you had a chance to work on that map any? I was hoping to get that game started Sunday (Jan 14). I've already had to postpone the start a couple weeks now while trying to find someone to make the map for us, and I'm afraid the others will give up and find other games if I put it off again.