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**Case** · September 5, 2001, 18:42

First, have a look at Harlan Thompsons Pacific Scenario - its playable as the Japanese, and IMHO is the only good scenario to have been made on the Pacific Theatre (Its got a great map to 'borrow' as well

)

Secondly, I'd recomend that you include Australia and New Zealand as part of America - after the fall of Singapore Australia, in the words of PM John Curtin, "looked to America" for its defence needs, and Australians made up the vast majority of MacArthur's forces untill late 1943. Also, NZ was basically a province of the US Navy during the Pacific War.

Also, I'd recomend that you cut back on the American tanks and armoured units - the Pacific War was mainly fought by infantry. Include the M4, but drop the rest. Give the US infantry higher stats to reflect thier armoured support though.

**Grothgar** · September 5, 2001, 18:59

Thanx case and i already nicked the map lol. Its the one im using because its the only good map out there. surprising. As i ssaid i dont know much about it but i will soon and i didnt think they used much armoured units but what to replace them with? I could have a japanese tank i suppose and that means i could include a lot more naval units. woo brainwave

Anyway australia has to be british im afraid because otherwise the british arnt one of the 3 to be played anymore. But ill certainly have that event in just for you case

**Case** · September 5, 2001, 19:18

Originally posted by Grothgar
I didnt think they used much armoured units but what to replace them with? I could have a japanese tank i suppose and that means i could include a lot more naval units.

Yeah, include Japanese tanks for use in China. You could also include oil tankers for the japanese, and have an event that takes a lot of money off the Japanese each time one gets sunk (the loss of oil tankers to American subs crippled the Japanese armed forces and war economy)

Originally posted by Grothgar
Anyway australia has to be british im afraid because otherwise the british arnt one of the 3 to be played anymore. But ill certainly have that event in just for you case

Grothgar, I can't emphasize enough that Australia shouldn't be British.
Untill 1945 the British were minor players in the Pacific Theatre. After the fall of Singapore British forces were limited to fairly minor operations in India and Burma. As long as the war in Europe continued Britain lacked the resources to make any real effort in the Pacific.
All Australia contributed to the India-Burma theatre was a few pilots, and 4 destroyers.

In 1945, Britain sent out the best parts or the Royal Navy to serve as part of the US Pacific Fleet, but all this amounted to was to provide the Americans with another Carrier task force - something they had plenty of allready. Australia provided major logistical support for the British 'Pacific Fleet', but this was done reluctantly, and with an eye to providing facilites for the post war Australian Navy.

In comparison Australia commited 6 divsions, 3000 aircraft and the bulk on the Royal Australian Navy to the 'American' drive through the South Pacific. Also, Australia was the US's major logisitcal base in the region and over a million American servicemen were based in Australia.

Personally, I'd either merge Britain with the US (as the Allies), or drop plans to make them playable.

**Grothgar** · September 5, 2001, 19:44

I would merge them but then youd have silly things like american units turning up in burma etc and im british so i want to make them playable. you never know you can maybe alter history although i want to make it quite hard to do so with anyone. so no expelling japan from the islands until near to when they did historically. I want to make it as historical but also as playable as i can. So we are having the british and australia is part of the empire then. still is kinda, part of the commonwealth. Any unit suggestions would be good. ill put some australian ships in as i have some free space. Diod any King George V battleships find their way into the pacific?

**Case** · September 5, 2001, 20:28

At the risk of this thread becomeing the Grothgar and Case show...

Originally posted by Grothgar
I want to make it as historical but also as playable as i can. So we are having the british and australia is part of the empire then. still is kinda, part of the commonwealth. Any unit suggestions would be good. ill put some australian ships in as i have some free space. Diod any King George V battleships find their way into the pacific?

Its your scenario and your call, But Imperial defence was a bad joke in WW2, and the commonwealth didn't fight as a unit in the Pacific. Britain could barely defend herself, let alone the rest of the empire. I did a lttle bit of checking, and prior in 1945 the only British unit in Australia was a single squadron of Spitfires based at Darwin.

Had the Invasion of Japan occured it was planned to form a 'Commonwealth corps' with divsions from Britain, Canada and Australia. This would have been the first time that commonwealth forces had fought together in the Pacific since the fall of Singapore in early 1942.
Also, Britain didn't send any Lancesters out the the Pacific [though some Lincolns (an improved Lancester) were prepared for operations against Japan in 1945]. The Only Lancesters sent out prior to this were a couple that the Australian Airforce used for publicity stunts to raise money for war bonds (see atached picture

) I'd recomend that you use Mosquitos or Beaufighters instead.
There were some KGV's attached to the British Pacific Fleet.

Attached Files

**Grothgar** · September 5, 2001, 21:06

Ok then. No Lancasters!!! Grr. i liked them. Oh well got unit graphics for both the mosquito and the beufighter. Im going to sort the units out before anything else. also ive been doing the placing of cities. (shamefully ripped off Harlan's scen lol

)
And if it becomes the Grothgar and Case show who cares lol. Although i am hoping ANZAC will come in with his infinate store of knowledge. Boy i kiss ass bad

**Chris 62** · September 5, 2001, 21:36

Pacific in WW II, eh, Groth?

I can help with this, A LOT.

First, Japan didn't have marines (Sorry, they didn't, they used sailors trained in landing ops, and army troops, but NEVER had a dedicated Marine corp. A lot of people may think differently, but they are DEAD WRONG). So drop the Marines, the SNLF is the same thing.

Second, Japan used armor in the phillippines, and in the defense of the island sin the central Pacific (Tarawa), in the Marianna's (Saipan, Tinian and Guam), even on Iwo Jima, so they had tanks, not just in China. The major type, used through out WWII was the type 97 Chi-Ha, armed with a low velocity 57mm main battery. By all means include it.

Third, your comment Groth, that no US units in Burma is WAAAAY off.
Look up a group called Merril's Marauders to start with.

Also, the Chinese forces in India (2-4 divisions) were under American control, and American equiped.

Next, the Australian Question.
Case is right, the Brits shouldn't control Australia.
Now comes the radical part: The US Should!
Case pointed out that Aussie units acted in concert with the US, what you could do is create special Aussie infantry, very powerful units, that arrive ONLY via events, and cannot be built, and only in Australia.
The Aussies could only field so many units, so this is realistic, and as Case pointed out, Australia was vertually a US base in WW II.
This would end up being VERY historical for civ, but once created, those units could go anywhere.

For extra Japanese units, besides the Chi-Ha tank. The Japs were working on some fine A/C, some of which entered service, like the Ki-84 Frank, and they bult a four-engined bomber proto-type (It's name escapes me right now). You could add the deadly Kate torpedo bomber (stats similar to the TBF)

For the US, you could lose the half-track and the M3 Lee series (they wern't used much in the pacific). The other units are good.

I'm a little tired right now Groth. Contact me on Yahoo tommorow night and we can talk more about it.

**Grothgar** · September 5, 2001, 21:54

First of all your tired!!! lol. im the one up at 2:45 in the morning. Stamina my good man. Anyway i implimented the Type 97 tank and i have one more unit slot. I renamed the imperial marines are you sure about the SNLF because i have Steel panthers WAW and they are in there. Ok so ill bow to pressure australia will be american. Any other places that could be british? ive got singapore and india and thats about it. hmm maybe it will have to do. Grrr i hate you guys sometimes

I was going to have a T-34/76 for russia but im getting rid of that which is why i have a free unit slot. I have A carrier class for each of the 3 main protagonists as well as a battleship class (2 for britain.) The US and Japan have 4 types of surface ships and one sub each. there are 2 transport types but i could cut that to 1 which would free up another slot. I could get rid of the enginners which would free up another.

So i have 1 definate and 3 maybe.

Japan has 4 airplane types the US has 6. hmm did many B-17 see action in pacific because if not ill keep the B-24 and get rid of the B-17. help me guys

**Grothgar** · September 5, 2001, 21:55

First of all your tired!!! lol. im the one up at 2:45 in the morning. Stamina my good man. Anyway i implimented the Type 97 tank and i have one more unit slot. I renamed the imperial marines are you sure about the SNLF because i have Steel panthers WAW and they are in there. Ok so ill bow to pressure australia will be american. Any other places that could be british? ive got singapore and india and thats about it. hmm maybe it will have to do. Grrr i hate you guys sometimes

I was going to have a T-34/76 for russia but im getting rid of that which is why i have a free unit slot. I have A carrier class for each of the 3 main protagonists as well as a battleship class (2 for britain.) The US and Japan have 4 types of surface ships and one sub each. there are 2 transport types but i could cut that to 1 which would free up another slot. I could get rid of the enginners which would free up another.

So i have 1 definate and 3 maybe.

Japan has 4 airplane types the US has 6. hmm did many B-17 see action in pacific because if not ill keep the B-24 and get rid of the B-17. help me guys

Oh and chris ill take you up on that offer. be ready for loads of questions my good man.

Thanx a lot everyone even when you do **** up my plans

**Boco** · September 5, 2001, 21:57

Operation Olympic or Coronet?

Only 62 units is a tough limitation for the entire theater from 41-45. If my first impression was correct, your list has already reached the total number of units limitation. Yet you missed a lot of naval fighters and bombers, B29's, older aircraft, older battleships, and non-Essex class carriers. The sheer number of ship classes are going to force you to treat most in a generic manner.

Now for an odd idea. How about focusing on a single major campaign or a single year? Perhaps, 1945+. Besides US and Japan, this could include two Chinese civs, the Soviets, the Commonwealth (is that farfetched at this point, Case?). It would also have a lot of potential for "what if's". In particular, you could create a tense race between the Soviets and Mao overrunning Korea and China before the Western allies force a Japanese surrender. The units could be the latest and greatest of WWII: a variety of land/sea/air kamikazes, jets, advanced heavy and light tanks. Still the 62 unit limitation would be tough here, too.

**Grothgar** · September 5, 2001, 22:05

Well im going to have the IJN Yamato and the USS Iowa and the HMS Renown (Although for a really short length) and the King George V classes but i think your right the rest will have to be generic. also im having a carrier class for each of the 3 nations
But your right i need to have more miscellaneous ship types

**Hobbes** · September 5, 2001, 23:04

I can help too...
go Canada!!
have a big Canadian invasion of Japanese China!!! just for the hell of it!

**Case** · September 6, 2001, 00:24

Grothgar, after the first few months of the war, B-17's were replaced by B-24's (which with thier longer range were better suited to the Pacific)

BTW, having a look at your proposed list of units, I'd recomend that you drop all the unique British tanks and just have them use the Sherman. The India-Burma theatre was to rugged for tanks to operate, and Britain didn't send any tanks to Malaya. Replace them with Indian infantry and Gurkas

Boco, having the commonwealth as a seperate civ in 1945 is marginally better then it would be in 1942-44, but not by much. While Australia and Britain did work together, it was definetly under the command of the Americans.

**Grothgar** · September 6, 2001, 08:45

Well ive gotten rid of most of the tanks and a lot of the ships because im just going to have types of them. like cruiser destroyer etc. British have a matilda II at the start but then ill give them the tech to build shermans and there you go problem solved. The special ships im having are:

IJN Yamato
USS Iowa
King George V Class
Zuikaku Class
HMS Indomitable
USS Lexington (Lady Lex)
USS Essex Class

I have 12 slots left to use as a result of my downgrading 13 if i take out the B-17 but ill leave it in for a while. Most of these will be taken up by sea units though.

Destroyer, Cruiser, DD, AA Cruiser, Battleships

So thats 7 slots left. So any ideas. I might use the indian and gurka units which leaves me with 5. so 5 definate 7 maybe, Thanx guys

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