Poll on the Mars Project: Should there be attacking?

[PolarisGL]

Yes or no?

I don't mind either way.

I'd like no because it would be an empire building scenario about colonizing Mars realisitically.

However, I am a skeptic on if the scenario would be fun or not.

Please give me some input on this; the decision is mind boggling!

[DarthVeda]

How about diplomatic warfare?

[PolarisGL]

I've already said there will be some of that good stuff.

I mean flat-out war though.

[Chris 62]

I would like to see a 'perfectionist' scenario. All out warfare often breaks out in colony scenarios, but I would like to see a scenario where man's better attributes are shown, namely, teamwork and healty competition. A no fight scenario would be just what the doctor ordered. Of course, that doesn't mean there can't be intrigue and spying.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[PolarisGL]

Martian Cold War is an option as well, without the nuclear attribute.

A race to create the best colonial nation.

[Henrik]

Just a thought: If there is no attacking, what would be the humans motivation to discover (and build) more expensive but better defence units, the only unit upgrades that wont be a waste of shields would be the engineer slot and the spy slot, and maybe a faster trade unit.
I am not saying that no war is a bad idea, I would like to play a scenariolike that, but there would have to be very few units.

[PolarisGL]

There will be several explorer units with different attributes for their movement range.

Attacking units will actually exist, but they will attack barbarian units called "resources" or "artifacts." Every time this happens, you will gain a technology or money or something like that.

Settlers and spies can vary in their abilities as well, such as maybe alpine for a certain type of settler unit.

There will be impassabile units that only air units can destroy. That means you need an explorer unit/mining unit that can attack air units, thus, another unit right there (not actually air). The impassible terrain will be worth a lot of money as well.

The only thing I'm worried about on the idea above is if the explorer/mining air units go over ocean squares. Perhaps giving them a range like a helicopter or something of that sort.

[Henrik]

Domain 3?

[PolarisGL]

Sea units, of course. Explorers and unique units, some with attack that would obtain oceanic resources.

[Dienstag]

I agree completely with what cpoulos said above, and I like the idea of explorer units.

How would you keep explorer units from attacking other civs? Low attack, high defense values? Permanently allied?

[PolarisGL]

Perminately allied seems the best choice out of those. Good idea.

Dienstag, you're to thank for many of my ideas.

[jeibel]

I think there are some issues to take into account, Polaris. Mainly your scenario span and reality factor.
Reality Factor is pretty high, if i understand correctly, and in one of the preview thread you me7ntioned you wanted your scenario to cover around 500 years to reflect the huge amount of effort it take to terraform extensively.

If the scen extends for a period of over an hundred years, there HAS to be war. On Earth, that is .
It is unthinkable that the future political situation will remain stable troughout the century, without crises leading to armed conflict emerging. That's sad , but doesn't history show it pretty clearly? Even the times considered most stable and peaceful [such as the XIX century] are ridden with bloody, although limited, wars. Just look at the interdipendance between war and economics.
I think therefore that either a Russo-European or a Russo-Chinese conflict should be represented. [that's just what i consider to be the most probable outcome of our present situation ]

The Big Question however is: how to have that reflected in the scen? Well, at the very least you should have a couple of text box events describing the tension mountin' up and then exploding. It shall try to comunicate the anxiety the colonists feel, being sheltered and exiled, side to side with the "enemy" , powerless while their homes and dear ones are at a stake.

Further than that, however, realism kicks in ...
What do you think would be the nature of Mars warfare?
What the relationship between colonies?
To answer these questions let's try to keep in mind the economic feasability of the choice from a nation point of view. Since from the beginning of space exploration there's always been a -heavy- (to put it mildly) commitment of the military, i think Mars would be no exception ("security reason" ), even more so given the presence of foreign powers (and the military know how fickle treaties really are ). The other side of the issue is the self-dependancy of colonies. Do they need to be supplied from Earth? Even more importantly, is there internal trade and 'partnership'? [I think it would be important to have 'Material Shipment' -caravan- units]

Let's put this together. I think the early aim of the colonies is to increase self-sufficiency, namely setting up food sources and power production. They will of course employ as much of pre-built infrastracture as possible, all transported with a single trip from Earth. I imagine that done with 'convoys' of a number of vehicles with great transport capability, but nothing really massive. A 10X version of the shuttle shall be within technological possibility. IIRC, an extimate of a Mars trip for a 2020 tech level ship would be around 13 months. Therefore the initial shipment needs to be able -alone- to set up a self-sustaining colony. Given the high risk involved and the extreme difficulty of this first step, i think that resources exchange with the foreign settlements will be considered -vital- by the colonists. Well, i hope to have given a fair picture of the Earth-Mars 'airlifting' situation.

In such conditions, i consider the efforts needed to sustain a vehicled (=based on plane or armor warfare) army completely impossible. And also useless. Why? Well, to begin with, there is a very limited number of fixed installments, around which all human activity on planet gravitates. The list of target is therefore, shall we say, obvious? The only military operation that make sense to me are: raiding resource shipment, seizing extraction site, defense of the aforementioned, sabotage and all-out destruction (the equivalent of strategic bombing: infantry-placed explosives).
I don't consider the conquest of a base a possibility, since the destruction brought by the seizure will probably make it uninhabitable. The fixedness of targets reinforce my opinion that open, mobile, offensive warfare would be strategically unfeasable. And Mars lack of atmosphere makes vehicles slow at best, reducing the advantages of open combat versus defensive even further.

Also, once war breaks out 'tween two nations on Earth, what is the point, barring national pride, of conquering the other's base? I think it would be done only if needed to stop the supply of a key element to the war effort on Earth.
And forget the idea that if war breaks out, nation will frantically send reinforcement up Mars to seize foreign base. Given the reaction times (both in supplying ships and in travel time), it will be a lot easier and convenient to attack the ships themselves, or to interdict space travel. Even assuming a power can sneak up an offensive cargo, they've got to keep it secret for a LOT of time. I bet once the news get out they will find their border crossed & bombed faster than you can say 'blitzkrieg'.
Therefore: if war breaks out you'll have to count only on the units present at the moment on Mars. Probably all traffic between the planets will be stopped.

But what will these forces be? Well i'm thinking of platoons equipped with infantry-grade weapons, high explosives, improved higly mobile spacesuit and very good comunication tech. One of the reason is that this equipment can be packed in quite a reduced space .
Their duty would be mainly garrison (= security/police), patrol of working sites, and counter espionage.

The colonists reaction must also be taken into account. Especially if they are born in space, they won't be too involved in the war effort, as for them, the suspension of trade, and therefore much needed luxuries, is a far greater concern. I therefore envision the military taking a great deal of control over operations, reinforcing border patrol and home security, thus rendering the poor colonist's life even more dull, and teh civilians trying to mantain underground contacts with foreign base, to accomodate life's little pleasures and smuggling up items in shortage.

If you thought this post was long-winded, , for i'm now gonna give you an explanation of how i would do it in Civ terms. All of this along the course of many turns.
-Introductionary text box: "Tension is mounting up..."
-Box "The unthinkable has happened! War breaks out!"
-Causeaggression. The state of war will halves caravan revenue. Good!
-Event creation of tightly packed, fixed infantry platoon along the border. The purpose of this is to do funny things with ZOCs, forcing the player to find creative way of getting through / around them.
-Event creation of Security Forces in cities, fixed Spies/Diplo.
-Eventual event creation of Patrol units. They shall be simulated using air units (=not able to conquer base), capable of wiping out civilian and to wage war of attrition with fixed defensive position.
Range limited to very limited: after all, a squad of human out in the open WILL run out of food, oxygen, fuel, ammo... Appropriate correction of crash box.
Eventually: barracks / outpost -> Airbase.
-Eventual manipulation of caravan revenue related technology: invention...
-Opening up of new branch of tech three, via event given tech, involving civilian underground operation. It shall lead to smugglers (freighter = old caravan bonus), alpine, paratroops, ignore ZOCs, police stations, darwin...
-To mess things up: have fixed units have home city and offensive attack value, to create unrest in representative governmnets. Maybe they even need to be resupplied (= settler type) ...
-Use event given city-style changing tech to do something stilish, like rushed fortification, barbed wire, an so on...
-Event related to wiping out fixed units (terrain change = permanent sabotage, tech = seizure of a lab, creation of friendly units = capture of civlian...)
-Maybe there even is a possible use for a nuke
More to follow...

As you see i don't propose a wide variety of military units. Just one each for a specialized purpose. About ten total .

And i'm not even considering the possibilty of war for indipendence!

Farewell!

[PolarisGL]

In one word, jeibel: wow.

Not only did your post give ideas to me, it spawned new ones in my brain ready for testing and intertwining into the scenario.

I'd love to hear what you have to say about a war of independence, as that is one idea I was thinking of.

I had the idea of self-sufficiency, gradually going up from Earth resources, and I thought that caravans could appear via events from Earth, giving you some money, or just flat-out give you some money.

About your vehicle ideas: after a while, the atmosphere will be fine for people to walk around without space suits, and thus the vehicles would be fine, but maybe we should break some realism rules and make it so the vehicles can work on Mars, but just give them a movement rate of 1 or 2, as opposed to ALPINE for infantry?

I actually considered taking back the 500 years idea. It is simply a little too long. We should break realism again here, and make terraforming go slowly, but not that slow. Afte rall, in Star Trek, they discovered interstellar travel before the 24th Century.

A Martian war over RESOURCES would be highly plausible as well. We have them here on Earth. The seeds of war can be planted anywhere, including Mars, and the water used to make those seeds grow can be any justification. Resources is a great one. Independence is another. Mounting tensions on Earth is another.

I would like to combine 1 and 3. Resources and mounting tensions. Arguments over resources happen before the tensions on Earth, not large arguments, but ones that still nonetheless require negotiations. So, when the tensions on Earth get stronger, the tensions on Mars over resources and territorial rights grow stronger as well. Then boom, they break, and that seed of war has grown into a tree (if trees could grow on Mars, that is; let alone psychological ones, unless after terraforming ).

I like your unit ideas. But some of the best units I've created are these neat motorcycle units, or vehicles and buggies and things like that. As well as, later on in the game, these planes that glide/hover over the surface (still can't go over water).

What if those patrol units in the air go over the ocean though? Woops.

Any use of naval units?

Thank you very much, jeibel! I will mention you as one of the many in the Civilization II community who has helped me on this project in the readme.txt file (or .doc ).

[jeibel]

Oh thank you Polaris!

If you like vehicles, but have been tickled by my ideas, there's no reason to limit yourself! You won't be going for ultra-hardcore realism, right? ;p Using multiple rules & events files, you could have the fixed border i was proposing, where the main objective of conflict is smuggling through spies & caravans, and then, with a quick rules change have the fixed position became mobile infantry units, as vehicle are slowly introduced on Mars. In this way you wil have a change on the nature of warfare, you can regulate it's "radicality", and the do the same for the introduction of planes (i LOVE gliders ). It's not necessary to tie up tech specifically if you don't want to: just make them related to a tech everyone should already have, or even better, an infrastracture related tech. This will free up tech slots and event space. Just tell the player that "developing your base and self support will become beneficial later on, even if not readily appearent" Through different events file you could tailor different wars for different civs, making the scenario more replayable. For example, if playing russians you could be dragged into a war with the chinese right from the beginning (fixed border), and then having the front changing face as the situation evolve... While the Europeans might look differently at their neighboor, once gliding commandos become available

In civ terms:
-Stage 1 (fixed warfare) as i described. Air units CAN be used to simulate infantry patrol as long as you change back to normal later on... (How long shall this stage last? 30 turns? )
-Stage 2 Rule changes. Now the player who researched seemingly dead-end techs like "cargo bay" or "additional engineers hiring" finds himself able to build assault buggies, and have opened up branch of the tech tree allowing him to improve his offensive even more. Meanwhile, the lazy player will need to be quick to evacuate his now-threathened border...
-Stage 3 As the athmosphere become thicker, and infrastracture developed, flying machines start blazing the skies of Mars!

I think that stage 2 opens up lots of possibilities. You will have power balance shifts quickly. Combined with the removal of diplomatic limitations, it will take you ponder the interesting dilemma of striking first if superior, while not forcing the peaceful player to fight. I've heard that "War is the exploitation of positions of strenght against positions of weakness. Diplomacy is the delay that provides the possibility of building up such positions". I think that feeling could be recreated. This is a way of looking at war for resources, too. If you found yourself suddenly advantaged, would you pass up the chance to seize richness from your inferior neighboor ?

I would also like you to consider the fact that in the early stage, the reaction time from Earth is huge. Therefore, shall emergency arise, you can only turn to your neighboor for help...

I don't know very much about Mars geology, i really don't know how you would use naval units. Surprise us!

I would like to post about he war of indipendance, but i'got to go ...
Let's just say that it is only doable once the colonies are completely self-sustaining, once the sentiment for that is up (inept leadership, being space-born...), and you have to consider the role of Earth's spaceships, and of the orbital bombing of the colonies...

Farewell!